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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:44 am 
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Matthew,

Right, the dual mounts do appear to be under tarps, separate from the shields. I should pay closer attention!

Rick,

Do you know the date of the photo you posted of the guns and shields at the Philadelphia Navy Yard?

I knew I had seen it somewhere. I have six photos of the Cleveland CL-55 at that pier (see attached). The 5" mounts were already installed, so obviously they were for another ship(s). Notice that the Mk 34 directors had not been installed.

Looks like there was another CL/CA at the pier to the right in this photo (the stern looks like a Cleveland class - more or less square at the waterline and round at the main deck). It might have been the Columbia CL-56 - it was commissioned about a month after the Cleveland.

There were four gun assemblies under tarps and twelve shields. These would have been for PNY projects, and not removed from CVLs because the 5" mounts would never have been installed on the CVLs. All nine CVLs were constructed by New York Shipbuilding at Camden, New Jersey.

Phil


Attachments:
USS Cleveland.jpg
USS Cleveland.jpg [ 144.86 KiB | Viewed 2517 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:15 am 
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Those are "Cruiser" mounts. They have the long angled face plate and the short vertical plate.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/057/0405713.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/095/0409513.jpg

"Battleship" mounts have the taller vertical plate and the gun port opening almost touch the knuckle.
http://navsource.org/archives/01/061/016177.jpg

"Destroyer" mounts look the same as "Cruiser" mounts but the sheild is so thin they had to be reinforced later on.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0571505.jpg

Here is picture of several types of 5" mounts together
The far two left shields are lighter "Cruiser" mounts, the next two are the heavier "Battleship" mounts.
There are even Single mounts.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016243b.jpg

This is an easy way of trying to identify the type of mount installed on a ship.
It doesn't mean that "battleship" mounts were found on battleships and "cruiser" mounts were found on cruisers.
The fast battleships had "Battleship" mounts as well as the first four Atlanta's
The reconstructed Pearl Harbor battleships had "Cruiser" mounts installed.
The Alaska class had "Cruiser" mounts
The Essex class had "Cruiser" mounts

There main difference between them is the weight.
Battleship mounts had thicker armor and weighed considerably more.
Destroyer mounts were sheet metal and were light weight.

You would need very good pictures of the entire mount to determine the correct Mk and/Mods and a lifetime of research.
As Rick said earlier, he gave up trying to figure them out because there are so many variables.


Hope this is of some help. It's the method we use when building 1/96 model ships.
The difference is noticeable in that scale.


James


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:08 pm 
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I really have to wonder if these photos of USS CLEVELAND fitting-out were taken at Philadelphia Navy Yard or at New York Shipbuilding, Camden, NJ?

I suspect they were taken at NYSB prior to commissioning on 15 June 1942. I scanned a series of aerial photos of USS CLEVELAND taken at the same time, but they were undated and the location wasn't specified. If memory serves me right, I scanned them in 2008, the Philadelphia Navy Air Field was credited with taking the photos. So I may have assumed they were taken there. But with the other cruiser near by and the "Mk 32" 5-in gun mounts, it would seem that NYSB makes more sense. I compared this image to what photos I have scanned of PhilNY and what I could find on-line of NYSB yard (see attached thumbnail images) and it sure looks like this is a match to NYSB Fitting-out basin area. The white roofed building stands out along with the larger buildings behind it and beside it. Nothing along the PhilNY waterfront looks anything like this.

With this pier being the "fitting-out" area at NYSB, stockpiling of mounts and shields makes a lot of sense.

This also helps to date these aerial photos as being in early June 1942.

Image

Attachment:
22_big.jpg
22_big.jpg [ 47.79 KiB | Viewed 2474 times ]


Attachment:
NYSC_01.jpg
NYSC_01.jpg [ 68.58 KiB | Viewed 2474 times ]



Image


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:16 pm 
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Rick,

You are right. They were taken at New York Shipbuilding in Camden, NJ. Look at the two inclining experiment photos (attached) dated 30 May 1942.

In the first is that unique crane with the four-level angled base. It is in the other photos. The second photo shows the long building with the smaller roof-top cabin that is in the photo you posted.

The inclining experiment photos were taken at the place along the quay parallel to the long building where the other ship was located in the pictures posted earlier. Then the Cleveland was moved around the corner for the second series of photos.

I don't have any inclining experiment photos of the Columbia to see if it was the "other" ship. They would have the Cleveland in the background.

****

Those 5"/38 mounts and shields could have been "surplus" from the CVL conversions. The Independence CVL-22 (ex Amsterdam), Princeton CVL-23 (ex Tallahassee), Belleau Wood CVL-24 (ex New Haven), Cowpens CVL-25 (ex Huntington), Monterrey CVL-36 (ex Dayton), Langley CVL-27 (ex Crown Point, ex Fargo), and Cabot CVL-28 (ex Wilmington) were all under construction at NYSB in Camden at the time the Cleveland photos were made. The Independence and Princeton were pretty far along at the time of the Cleveland photos - they are probably the two CVLs visible in the background of the photo you posted. Twelve shields equals two converted CLs.

Phil


Attachments:
Cleveland at NYSB 1.jpg
Cleveland at NYSB 1.jpg [ 134.74 KiB | Viewed 2468 times ]
Cleveland at NYSB 2.jpg
Cleveland at NYSB 2.jpg [ 125.41 KiB | Viewed 2468 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:52 pm 
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The CVL's in the above photo labeled "NYSC_01.JPG" are Saipan and Wright. That would put that photo later than Aug '45.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:46 pm 
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Dick,

Thanks. I searched for images of NYSB hopefully during WWII and that one was the LARGEST Hi-Res image available ... BUT none of the images I thought would answer the question here, had a date as to when the photo was taken. :smallsmile:

More images I have to UPDATE the captions.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:32 pm 
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The camouflage on the Cleveland picture just above, does anyone know which that is?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:48 pm 
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MikeyBugs wrote:
The camouflage on the Cleveland picture just above, does anyone know which that is?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:14 am 
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Rick and Dick,

Seems you have poked around in the National Archives a bit, so maybe you can answer some questions for me. I would like to visit myself but I live in Oregon and running back and forth across the continent is pretty costly, especially since I hate flying the cattle cars in the sky and there don't seem to be any good hotels within walking distance to the Archives in Maryland.

I have all of the Cleveland class blueprints that I can get from the Archives on microfilm. I have been poring over these for a decade now and I have found that a lot of the drawings are missing from the microfilm. I'd guess that maybe 25% of the drawings listed as reference drawings on the sheets aren't on the microfilm. None of the square bridge blueprints are available on microfilm.

Are there collections of paper blueprints for the Clevelands? Do they include the square bridge modifications?

Another thing I have searched for with no luck are blueprints for the 5"/38 and 6"/47 guns and carriages (the guns themselves, not the gun houses and turrets). Would they be somewhere in the archives?

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:54 am 
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Phil,

I have not personally, and I know that Dick hasn't been to NARA II so he can't, have reviewed in person what paper drawings that NARA has for the CLEVELAND class. I have gone through many paper destroyer plans at NARA II and they can be a mixed bag. Most are blueprint BGP copies, but sometimes there are original mylar drawings used for making the blueprint BGP's. Also, other plans turn-up in files for a ship that may be useful. Pre-WWII ships had what are called "Portfolio" (PORT) Contract Design drawings used for sending out with requests for contract proposals and the drawings are pretty detailed. Many times these drawings are early and don't reflect what gets built many months later. It looks like the CLEVELAND class don't have PORT drawings ... http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/nara/shippl ... folios.htm ... HOWEVER, I notice that this list doesn't show PORT drawings for FLETCHERS and I know those exist because I have copied them. Also, other random plans are found in the "paper" drawings. The only real way to know is to go through every ship file in the class to find out. With some 24 ships in the class, that could take awhile with each Pull (about 4-5 pulls in a day) limited to ten drawings each (one BGP counts as ONE, but each original paper drawing "roll" counts as ONE as well). When I was going through destroyers, it took me several trips to get through ALL the FLETCHERS (175 ships, but there were not drawings in their collection for ALL of them) and some of the other destroyers folders. Normally the "engineering drawings" for individual ships are only available on microfilm ... which you say you have already been to. Why drawings would be missing, I don't know.

I can't give you a better idea of what is available until I can look in the master drawings lists at NARA in reference books they have there (I have NEVER had much luck looking on-line through NARA files via their system ... I can't even find things I KNOW that are there and WHERE).

I don't know what may be available in BuShips Textual records.

I have not tried looking for gun mount drawings. These would be under Ordnance rather than BuShips files, so I'm unsure where they would be located. I see from the listing on hnsa ... http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/nara/shipplans/ordnance.htm ... that there should be drawings available at NARA for the guns you are looking for.

The good thing, is that scanning of paper drawings in digital format is pretty reasonable at NARA ... paper copies is another matter!!

You can try to hire a pro researcher, but that can be pricey, the best way is an in person visit to NARA. Depending on the skill and knowledge set of the pro researcher (some have no idea of drawings), a lot of time is spent on their part (and the meter is running) learning and back-and-forth with YOU trying to get to what you want. I know that getting to Maryland from the West Coast can be expensive, but a week long trip would help on your quest and even if you don't get everything in one trip, you can narrow down your focus of requests to a pro researcher and/or direct requests from NARA to get the balance.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:09 pm 
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Rick,

Thanks.

Phil

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:54 pm 
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An improved 3D-printed bridge for the Pit Road/Skywave 1/700 scale USS Miami CL-89 kit is now available.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=161903

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:00 pm 
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These would be purely Late-war Bridges for the Clevelands, no?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
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USS San Francisco
USS Helena
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HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:52 pm 
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Your question is a little confusing. Are you asking about bridge types?

There were two "major" bridge designs on CLEVELAND class cruisers. The first seven units, CL-55 through 58, 60, 62, and 63 had the original "Round Face" design. The remaining units had the revised "Square Face" bridge design. None of the Round-Bridge units was modified to the Square-Bridge design.

Since both groups were operational in "Late WWII" and some changes were made during the war, there isn't technically a Late-War design. The Round-Bridge units went through several iterations while being built/upgraded. The bridge replacements that ModelMonkey is offering is to replace the Square-Bridge parts molded for the Pitroad (and now Midships) USS MIAMI kits with more accurate parts.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:56 pm 
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The later Clevelands, though, were not commissioned until 1944, though, were they?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:15 pm 
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Square-Bridge design
cl-89 Miami commissioned dec 1943 http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/089/04089.htm
cl-81 Houston commissioned dec 1943 http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/081/04081.htm
cl-80 Biloxi commissioned aug 1943 http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/080/04080.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:43 pm 
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For commissioning dates see the Cleveland Class history at:

http://www.okieboat.com/Cleveland%20Cla ... story.html

Some of the higher numbered ships were commissioned in 1943 before lower numbered ships that were commissioned in 1944. Hull numbers were assigned at the time the contracts were awarded, not when the ships were launched or commissioned. Four shipyards built the Clevelands, and some were faster that the others. So the ships were not commissioned in hull number sequence.

To clarify, all Clevelands from CL-55 through CL63 had the round bridge armored pilot house configuration (there was no CL 59 or CL-61). From USS Vincennes CL-64 on the Clevelands had the square bridge without the armored pilot house. The armored pilot house was removed to save weight. From CL-66 on the aluminum superstructure was replaced with steel so the aluminum could be used for airplanes. There were other significant differences between the original Clevelands and the later Vincennes versions.

Some people consider the Fargos to be a late war Cleveland class, and some consider them to be a class of their own. I think the Fargos were as different from the Clevelands as the Clevelands were from the earlier Brooklyn/St.Louis class. Clevelands were a modification of the Brooklyn design, and the Fargos were a modification of the Cleveland design.

Phil

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:53 am 
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Looking for 6in(150mm)47 gun barrels for USS Springfield a Providence Class Guided Missile Cruiser. I believe 6in(150mm)47 From Cleveland class could also be used. Have found 5.5 and 8in guns but no 6.
Any info would be deeply appreciated. Sorry for not being more specific in earlier post


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Thu May 19, 2016 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Merged into Cleveland Class thread


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:09 am 
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The USS SPRINFIELD IS 1/500 built back in late 60s. Can't find any gun barrels in that scale.
Can only find 1/700 parts. Any ideas on substitions?


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Thu May 19, 2016 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Merged into Cleveland Class thread


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:10 pm 
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CLOATH, USS Springfield is of the Cleveland class so same guns, turrets & mounts. could contact bruce at this link about making them for you. http://www.bdbarrels.com/
are you rebuilding it to what it came as or the way it was supposed to be? http://www.modelerjoe.net/shipmodellist.html#RenSpring
I have 3 of those built models bought off ebay that will eventually be rebuilt to the way they are supposed to be but of the different versions of guided cruisers.


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