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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:55 pm 
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Though far from an expert, very far, in fact, on U.S.N. cruisers I have to say that I have always considered the Cleveland class ships to be some of the best looking warships of World War II. Sleek, well armed, fast. The very epitome of a fast ship going in harm's way. I do hope that now that Dragon seems to be getting back into the warship business with the upcoming release of the Alaska class that we will see more cruisers of all classes offered up in injection molding in 1/350. They would also be good candidates for 1/200 scale offerings as they would not take up as much shelf space as an Iowa class BB or a carrier, but still offer the opportunity to market a well detailed model of a sadly overlooked subject. I do see some new cruisers on the market as I browse through the inventory of my favorite vendors, two Indianapolis's, at least one RN cruiser as I recall, and I would have to add in the Alaskas, as I would argue they are more cruiser than BB.

Bob M.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:09 pm 
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CLOATH,

All of the original Clevelands and the modified Talos/Terrier CLGs had the same 6"/47 guns and turrets.

BUT

There are some differences. Some of the ships had rangefinders on the #1 turret, but these were left off on later ships to reduce topside weight. None of the CLGs had rangefinders on the #1 turret.

Probably the greatest difference was the location and number of ladders on the turrets. Some ships had two or four ladders up the face of the turret around the guns, and some had a ladder on the back of the turret.

One other variation is the size of the vents on the back side of the turrets. Somewhere along the line these vents (port and starboard) became wider at the vent opening. I haven't taken time to figure out when this change occurred but be sure to check photos of the USS Springfield CLG-7.

Different ships had different arrangements for the bars welded to the turret tops/sides that canvas awnings were attached to. Again, consult the photos. I doubt if any of the CLGs had exactly the same configurations for the 6"/47 turrets, although the base structure was the same for all ships.

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:51 am 
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I, personally, would love to see a 1/200 Cleveland class. Preferably with the option for round or square bridge in the same box. It would definitely be on the small side, it would still be over 3 feet long, and at least be a bit cheaper than those large carriers and battleship.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:15 pm 
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Mike,

I would buy a 1:200 Cleveland kit if it was well made. However, there were several major and many minor changes between the different versions of the Clevelands, and it would be hard to make a "one kit fits all" version - or at least very expensive. I don't think any two of the 27 ships were alike.

In addition to the change from the round armored pilot house on the earlier ships to the square bridge version, the 5"/38 mounts #4 and #5 were moved aft two or three frames - 8 to 12 feet - so the aft deck houses were significantly different. There were significant differences in the turrets, type of 5"/38 mounts, smoke pipes, radars, directors, boat cranes and ships boats, aircraft cranes and aircraft, and the number and placement of the 20mm and 40mm guns.

It probably would be possible to make a kit that could be built as one of the earlier version or one of the later version.

Phil

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:24 pm 
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Frankly, I'd just like to see a kit with just the basics to start. I would say use as the round bridge the Cleveland and as the square either the Vincennes or Miami. But then again, these are the only Clevelands that come to mind at the moment. So really, just start out with 1 ship per type (round/square bridges) and the either expand from there or provide separate sets to convert from 1 ship to the others like Vincennes to Miami.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:24 pm 
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We are planning to release a WWII USS Cleveland class kit.
And hope to find as many pics with details as we can through internet and from you guys.
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:29 pm 
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I have questions about "target designators" and "target designation transmitters" (TDTs) - are they the same thing?

Looking at the blueprints for the USS Cleveland CL-55 I find the following:

Main battery designator - O4 level P&S Frame 57 - Main Battery Fire Control station
Main battery target designator - O3 level P&S ~8" aft Frame 91 - After Main Battery Fire Control station
Secondary battery designator - O5 level P&S ~Frame 61 -Air Defense Forward station
Secondary battery target designator - O4 level P&S Frame 91 - Air Defense Aft station

These target designators are separate from the gun directors (main, secondary and 40mm) and the air lookout/sky lookout stations. No Mark/Mod is given for any of these but the drawing is different for the main battery and secondary battery target designators.

The CL-64 and CL-89 Book of General Plans show target designators at:

Main battery target designator periscope - 79'? ABL P&S Frame ~8" forward of Frame 57 - Forward Air defense station
Main battery target designator - 72' 9" ABL P&S Frame ~8" forward of Frame 57 - Forward Fire Control station
Main battery target designator periscope - 72' 1" ABL P&S ~Frame 92 1/2 - After Air Defense station
Main battery target designator? - 65' 3" ABL P&S ~Frame 92 1/2 - After Fire Control station
Secondary battery target designator - 79' 7" ABL P&S ~Frame 60 1/2 - Forward Air Defense station
Secondary battery target designator - 72' 1" ABL P&S Frame 90 - After Air Defense station

Again, the main and secondary battery designators are draw differently and no Mk/Mod number is given. The main battery designators are enclosed within armored shells with the periscope coming out of the top. This is shown in the outboard profile views.

****

I have seen pictures of a Mk 1 Target Designator and photos of the superstructure of battleships about 1940 that show a Mk 1 Target Designator (attached photo) and another type of target designator on a heavy cruiser.

A book of shipboard electronics from 1953 lists a Mk 11 Target Designator Transmitter .

The USS Little Rock CLG-4 had Mk 23 Mod 0 TDTs on the O5 level. I have attached a drawing of the Mk 23 and a photo of the name tag off of the Little Rock's TDT (thanks to Art Tilley). These were installed in 1959 or 1960.

I found a repair and maintenance manual for a Mk 24 TDT dated 1970 on Amazon Books.

****

I have found two references saying that "lookouts" could supply target information to the gunfire control system (GFCS). Another reference said "lookouts" used the TDTs. Another reference said TDTs could provide target information directly to the GFCS.

I suspect that the lookout would look through binoculars attached to the TDT and align the target into the view by rotating the TDT about the vertical axis to set the bearing and raising the arm carrying the binoculars about the horizontal axis to set the elevation. Then he pushed a button on the hand grip to send the information to the GFCS computer.

Then I suspect that a director would be slewed to the bearing and elevation to find the target for the guns.

****

To complicate things some references talk about a "target designator" within the GFCS below decks in gun plot. This target designator was a console with a radar display and a joystick to allow the operator to place a circle around a target blip and press a button to assign that target to a director. Diagrams show this traget designator could recieve target information from a director or from a "lookout."

Further confusing the issue, I found a photo of a "target designator" that was a box on the bulkhead in CIC that had bearing and elevation readouts.

So the term "target designator" is pretty ambiguous.

****

Does anyone have more information about "target designators" or "target designation transmitters" and how they were used? Any corrections to what I posted above?

Phil


Attachments:
Target designator Mk 1 015700w.jpg
Target designator Mk 1 015700w.jpg [ 69.84 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]
Mk 23 Mod 0 TDT 20 Jan 2016 2 small.jpg
Mk 23 Mod 0 TDT 20 Jan 2016 2 small.jpg [ 108.14 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]
Mk 23 TDT name plate.jpg
Mk 23 TDT name plate.jpg [ 148.89 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:28 pm 
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DrPR wrote:
Rick and Dick,

Seems you have poked around in the National Archives a bit, so maybe you can answer some questions for me. I would like to visit myself but I live in Oregon and running back and forth across the continent is pretty costly, especially since I hate flying the cattle cars in the sky and there don't seem to be any good hotels within walking distance to the Archives in Maryland.

I have all of the Cleveland class blueprints that I can get from the Archives on microfilm. I have been poring over these for a decade now and I have found that a lot of the drawings are missing from the microfilm. I'd guess that maybe 25% of the drawings listed as reference drawings on the sheets aren't on the microfilm. None of the square bridge blueprints are available on microfilm.

Are there collections of paper blueprints for the Clevelands? Do they include the square bridge modifications?

Another thing I have searched for with no luck are blueprints for the 5"/38 and 6"/47 guns and carriages (the guns themselves, not the gun houses and turrets). Would they be somewhere in the archives?

Phil


Hi Phil-
I have a set of original USS CLEVELAND general arrangement paper plans. If there is something specific you need, let me know and I can try to photo or scan it (I would have to find a scanner big enough to accommodate a complete sheet).
Mike


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:56 am 
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Mike,

Thanks. I have the original USS Cleveland CL-55 general arrangement paper plans from Scale Shipyard plus the (mostly) complete set of Cleveland blueprints from the National Archives. These are all for the original round armored pilot house design.

What I have not been able to find are blueprints for the square bridge design (USS Vincennes CL-64 and later) superstructure. In addition to the bridge/pilot house modifications there are significant changes to the after superstructure. The aft port/starboard twin 5"/38 gun mounts #54 and #55 were moved aft about eight feet. This caused a significant rearrangement of features of the after deck house. The 20mm and 40 mm guns were in different positions (and different numbers) in the square bridge version than on the original Cleveland. There were two different types of aircraft cranes. The boat cranes were eliminated from the later designs.

The USS Miami CL-98 Book of General Plans has low detail plan views, but it doesn't show the exact positions of doors, vents and other structural details of the deck house sides that the blueprints show. Details of positions of objects on the decks (vents, hatches, etc.) and of the objects themselves are not shown in the general plans. Only the blueprints that show how to construct these things have sufficient detail for accurate large scale modeling.

****

The Archivists at the National Archives have not been able to find any of the superstructure blueprints for the square bridge version of the Cleveland class. I am afraid they have been lost.

NOTE: There are many blueprints for the latter version in the Archives (4341 total, but some are duplicates). However, these are only for plumbing, interior ventilation, electrical wiring and such. No deck house drawings! What I don't know is if any of the original paper blueprints survive in the Archives, or any where else.

I have the index reels for all Cleveland class blueprints on microfilm in the Archives. When all pages are printed single sided the stack is 4 1/2 inches high - something like 1500 pages. 8971 blueprints in all. But none for the square bridge superstructure!

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:05 am 
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I am currently looking at a skywave 1/700 model of the Cleveland. Is this a good quality and is it worth the 60USD price tag? Also, how much difference, if any, was there between ships of the class? I want to paint it in the measure 32/1D the uss houston had worn so wasn't sure if I had to do any modification to make it work.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:34 am 
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Betelguese90 wrote:
I am currently looking at a skywave 1/700 model of the Cleveland. Is this a good quality and is it worth the 60USD price tag? Also, how much difference, if any, was there between ships of the class? I want to paint it in the measure 32/1D the uss houston had worn so wasn't sure if I had to do any modification to make it work.

Frankly, no, it's not worth $60 - to me. But, if you love the ship and the class, it might be - to you.

Like any large class of warships, as the class progressed, changes started to be made.

Houston is a square bridge variant of the Cleveland-class. You'd need to find a copy of the Skywave Miami class kit to build her.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Betelguese90 wrote:
I am currently looking at a skywave 1/700 model of the Cleveland. Is this a good quality and is it worth the 60USD price tag? Also, how much difference, if any, was there between ships of the class? I want to paint it in the measure 32/1D the uss houston had worn so wasn't sure if I had to do any modification to make it work.


As said in a previous quote, to make the Houston you need a Miami version of the Skywave kit. That said, if you are truly looking for a Skywave Cleveland, I have one for sale at a lot less than the one on ebay.

Graham


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:10 am 
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Zed wrote:
As said in a previous quote, to make the Houston you need a Miami version of the Skywave kit. That said, if you are truly looking for a Skywave Cleveland, I have one for sale at a lot less than the one on ebay.

Graham


Zed,
Do you have more than one for sale?

I don't think Betelgeuse90 is referring to any Skywave Cleveland or Skywave Miami kit on Ebay, since I haven't been able to find either one on Ebay these days.
However, there is one listing on Amazon that's a whopping $111 US dollars or 150 Canadian dollars. :Mad_6:

The Skywave Miami listing is TWICE that.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:41 am 
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Freetime does sell the Midship rebox for over $60. Less the added PE and wood deck. That may be what the op is referring to... Not trying to speak for him but I think that's the one closest in price.

At least they did. I can't find it on their site anymore.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:08 am 
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I don't know if it is still up, but there was a skywave Cleveland for like $60 usd on Amazon.com. might be gone already as I'm seeing that was rather cheap for that company. Is there any other company that makes a Cleveland or Miami kit? The 60+ price tag for a 1/700 is rather steep for me and not really wanting to spend that much. Not necessarily one I love or anything, just would be nice for the namesake houston: the city I was born in.

As was stated, the further along a class gets there bound to be differences then the lead ship in the class. Plus there were quit alot of Cleveland class cruisers running around by the end of the war.

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Complete:
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1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:07 am 
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Betelguese90 wrote:
I don't know if it is still up, but there was a skywave Cleveland for like $60 usd on Amazon.com. might be gone already as I'm seeing that was rather cheap for that company. Is there any other company that makes a Cleveland or Miami kit? The 60+ price tag for a 1/700 is rather steep for me and not really wanting to spend that much. Not necessarily one I love or anything, just would be nice for the namesake houston: the city I was born in.

As was stated, the further along a class gets there bound to be differences then the lead ship in the class. Plus there were quit alot of Cleveland class cruisers running around by the end of the war.


You can also wait for the 1/700 Cleveland class kit reportedly being developed by Snowman model from China, though little has been heard of it since last year or so.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Haijun watcher wrote:
Betelguese90 wrote:
I don't know if it is still up, but there was a skywave Cleveland for like $60 usd on Amazon.com. might be gone already as I'm seeing that was rather cheap for that company. Is there any other company that makes a Cleveland or Miami kit? The 60+ price tag for a 1/700 is rather steep for me and not really wanting to spend that much. Not necessarily one I love or anything, just would be nice for the namesake houston: the city I was born in.

As was stated, the further along a class gets there bound to be differences then the lead ship in the class. Plus there were quit alot of Cleveland class cruisers running around by the end of the war.


You can also wait for the 1/700 Cleveland class kit reportedly being developed by Snowman model from China, though little has been heard of it since last year or so.



I will have to keep an eye out then. Not willing to spend more then $60 usd on a 1/700 model kit. Thanks for all the info!

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Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Hi all,

Other than the fact the hull was slightly underscale as mentioned in another thread, what's wrong with the Skywave/Pit-Road Miami's square bridge?

Just wondering why Shapeways had to make their own replacement square bridge if Skywave already represented the late-war square bridge Cleveland class CL variant in their Miami kits.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Haijun watcher wrote:
Hi all,

Other than the fact the hull was slightly underscale as mentioned in another thread, what's wrong with the Skywave/Pit-Road Miami's square bridge?

Just wondering why Shapeways had to make their own replacement square bridge if Skywave already represented the late-war square bridge Cleveland class CL variant in their Miami kits.

Good question. Please be advised that Shapeways is a printing company, they don't actually design anything. I designed the square bridge. I designed that product based upon customer requests and market analysis which indicated that a Cleveland class square bridge made available in more than one scale was likely to be commercially successful (it is). The Cleveland square bridge design was not intended specifically, exclusively for any one scale. The design in 1/700 was requested by 1/700 scale modelers who already had resin kits but preferred a 3D-printed bridge option for their resin kits. It sells best in 1/500 and 1/600 scales.

Hope that helps and thanks for asking!

Steve

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:49 pm 
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ModelMonkey wrote:
't actually design anything. I designed the square bridge.

Steve


My apologies, Steve. I meant you when I mentioned Shapeways above though. Thanks for making all those wonderful designs for 3D printing!

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