The Ship Model Forum

Thank you ever so.

I am returning to building model ships after being away for several years. To get my feet wet again, I purchased the Revell Emden/Dresden 1/350 kit. I intend to build these ships as pretty basic OOB models. In doing a little research on the Dresden, I have run into a situation.

Most pictures of the Dresden, as found on the internet and in the kit, show the foremast stepped immediately behind the bridge/conning tower. However, I found two photos of the Dresden (one in Anthony Preston's book Cruisers, and the other on an internet site), both labelled "Dresden" on the photos, that show the foremast stepped immediately ahead of the bridge. Was there a relocation of that mast in a refitting? Or were those two photos misidentified?
I know there was a second Dresden put in service after the first was lost, but it had the foremast behind the bridge also.

Since these two models would be practically identical, it would be nice to have a prominent feature to differentiate the two. Also, in the kit the Dresden is equipped with four shafts and screws. Written references describe this ship as have twin screw turbine drive. Sources agree that Emden was the faster of the two ships, yet Emden used VTE and Dresden used turbine.

Can anybody here give me some advice on this?

Les

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Les Foran
On the Oregon Trail

the foto on page 21 of preston book is of a light cruiser class leipzig, the munchen probably, as you seen from the decoration on the bow.
ciao peppe

I don't have Preston's book, but Peppe is right, some ships of the Bremen class did have their foremast stepped forward of the bridge. These were Bremen, Hamburg, Berlin and Lübeck in their original configuration, but most of these (except Berlin) had their foremast later stepped behind the bridge. Leipzig and Danzig from the Bremen class always had their foremast behind the bridge.

Likewise, the next classes (Konigsberg and then Dresden/Emden) always had their foremast behind the bridge, which was apparently the norm since 1906.

Unfortunately the differences between Emden and Dresden were very slight, even to the point that I know of a well known example of an official photo of Emden, being in fact the Dresden! The giveaway: the steam pipes adorning the three funnels run distinctly different in these two ships, so if you compare this photo with others from Dresden and Emden you will come to the same conclusion. Apart from that I wouldn't know other differentiating features, above the waterline.

Another option though is converting one of the kits into a Königsberg class vessel, the differences are more visible then, in particular when you would model SMS Stuttgart. A nice conversion by Wolfgang Kring can be found here:http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2268:flugzeugkreuzer-sms-stuttgart-1350-von-wolfgang-kring&catid=146
When you want to go this route I can provide you with more detailed plans of that class.

Maarten

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Peppe, Maartin,

Thanks for the help. And the quick responses!

Les

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Les Foran
On the Oregon Trail

Here my model of Emden built using a combination of the HP Models and Blue Ridge Models kits (1/700):


http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4060:deutscher-geschuetzter-kreuzer-emden-1700-hp-models-von-lars-scharff&catid=112

A conversion of Blue Ridge Models' Emden to SMS Mainz of the Kolberg class:

http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4000:deutscher-geschuetzter-kreuzer-mainz-1700-umbau-blue-ridge-models-von-lars-scharff&catid=112

SMS Nürnberg built using the Blue Ridge Models kit (which used the same hull, but the real ship was slightly smaller):

http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4085:deutscher-geschuetzter-kreuzer-nuernberg-1700-classic-warships-von-lars-scharff&catid=112

A conversion of the Dresden class to the Königsberg class (especially to Nürnberg, Stettin or Stuttgart, which were bigger than Königsberg) is possible as mentioned by Maarten.

And the older SMS Frauenlob of the Gazelle class (a conversion of Arcona by HP Models):

http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3984:deutscher-geschuetzter-kreuzer-frauenlob-1700-umbau-hp-models-von-lars-scharff&catid=112

The class built between the Gazelle class and the Königsberg class, the Bremen class, is still missing. A conversion is probably as difficult as a scratch built because of the different dimensions of forecastle and poop.

The first five ships of the Bremen class (and all ten of the Gazelle class) had the bridge behind the foremast, the last two (Leipzig, Danzig) around the foremast. The foremast of Bremen and Lübeck was later moved aft, when they were rebuilt. Also the four ships of the Königsberg class had the bridge around the foremast, whereas the Dresden class had the bridge always in front of the foremast. The Kolberg class, the last protected cruisers of the Imperial German Navy, had first a bridge similar to the Dresden class, but it was converted before 1914 (and again in the war in case of the two surviving ships).

Many photos of German protected cruisers (officially classified as Kleine Kreuzer) are mislabelled..

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Thanks, Maxim!
Nice work!

Les

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Les Foran
On the Oregon Trail

Hi Les,
thank you! I hope that I can expand the collection of cruisers of that era.

Cheers,
Lars

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I like pre-WWI ships. Plan to build some 1/350 models to go in a new display case I bought yesterday.

Currently I have the 1/350 Varyag, Emden (under construction), Dresden (not started), Bismarck (not started), Arizona (not started), a second Arizona (not started) to be built as Pennsylvania. I also have some 1/350 subs,
Liberty ship, and attack transport Montrose in 1/375.

The Emden/Dresden kits will be built OOB just to get used to doing this. The 1/350 battleships will have PE, and Pennsylvania will involve some scratchbuilding.

1/350 is a great size for detail. These old cruisers allow building in that scale and still winding up with compact models.

I've built a couple large-scale models of 1890's ships: a 1/240 Olympia and a 1/220 Oregon (both in the Gallery).
I love working in that size, as it allows the addition of much detail. Both used GMM PE. The Olympia was built from the rather crude Lindberg kit rather than the Revell kit, so needed extra decks and much detail. I would like to build these in 1/350, but do not like building resin models. I really like the fabrication phase of model building.

Les

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Les Foran
On the Oregon Trail

I fully agree!

The Revell Emden and Dresden kits really have a lot of potential, I already mentioned the conversion to a Stuttgart (Konigsberg class) isn't too difficult, for myself I started a conversion to the Nurnberg sister ship.

I also have started another conversion of the same thing into the Leipzig (Bremen class) as pictured here (sorry, I only had my scanner at hand...). This requires a lot more indeed: taking out a one inch section at the waist, new bow with much more 'ram', funnels replaced by scratch ones (cross section oval on the middle and forward one), bulwarks blended in, focs'le deck reconfigured, ventilators improved etcetera. But it is completely doable.

I also believe a Kolberg class belongs to the possibilities, although that one needs adding a section to the middle. A Gazelle class is under consideration, but structurally these ships were somewhat different, having a different frame spacing to start with. But I might...

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Hi Maarten,
unfortunately the link does not work properly - or the photo is a strange (kind of aquarium view).

I had thought to built Leipzig using Blue Ridge's Emden kit, but I have not done it, because the proportions are very different. Not only Leipzig is shorter, but also the forecastle and poop are much shorter. And the hullform at the positions, were cuts would have been done, is very bended. I thought it would be easier to scratch built her.

The conversion to Kolberg is much easier: I have added three pieces (one in the forecastle, two midships), but the elongation of the forecastle and a (bigger) elongation midships would also do the job.

Cheers,
Lars

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I'm sorry, guys. I could no more build the Emden OOB than I could drive 55mph.

I am building the ship as she would have looked on her commerce raiding days in the Indian Ocean. She had a fourth funnel, a fake made of canvas, to disguise herself as a British cruiser.

I built the bogus funnel out of heavy copy paper wrapped around a round pencil. The paper was secured to itself with double-sided tape. A wooden strip was glued to the front of the funnel to stiffen it. The pencil was removed, leaving a hollow tube.

The funnel was glued to the roof of the radio cabin. The wooden support rested against the foremast.

Does anyone have an idea about if the Dresden used two screws or four? Written descriptions describe two turbines, but the model and a CGI image I found show four screws. Could there have been a two-turbine setup involving four shafts? It would be fairly easy to build the model with two screws if the conversion was made before the hull was built.

Les

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Les Foran
On the Oregon Trail

Hi Les,
Dresden had four screws driven by two turbines - in contrast to Emden, which had only two screws driven by steam engines.

Cheers,
Lars

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As the Blue Ridge 1/700 Emden kit is made of resin, conversion will be rather more difficult than with the Revell 1/350 kit. But he's where I made the hull cuts:

below the waterline: at the widest point of the hull, halfway the bilge keels. You may disregard this of course with the Blue Ridge model as it is a waterline model.
above the waterline: one cut just aft of the rearmost hammock lockers. second cut just aft of large front casemate and one just in front of it. The front casemate is effectively relocated. I retained the foc'sle and poop decks, with considerable changes. I replaced the main deck with Evergreen 2020 'Car Siding', having v-grooves spaced at .020 inch (0.5 mm).

Btw: I used original Kaiserliche Marine plans of SMS Danzig that are available from a Russian website, that unfortunately cannot be linked here as they seem not to respect copyright of other users of this site. Problem might be that you will have to search for 'Danzig' spelled in Cyrillic letters though...

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

I owed you a better picture of my SMS Leipzig model, still...

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

I am little bit confused. I thought i read german ww1 antivegetative paint under water on hull was green.
Majority of above models showing red paint, on the other side that Emden model done by POW in Australia during war looks like it had colour which doesn not look like degraded red. What was the reality please, is anybody able to reply please?

The model by Peter Gunter Huff, the author of both books and plansets of SMS Emden, whereby even the model ropes are stored according to protocol, has a red hull.

In thread about model of Viribus Unitis Stefano stated that
RM, KuK and Russian imperial navy used green antivegetative paint for underwater parts of hull.

Did he really meant ReichsMarine or just mistypo and he thought Royal Navy?
And if it was really Reichsmarine, why then Emden wasnt green underwater in that case?

Suspect he meant Regia Marina, or Italy's Royal Navy.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

RM can only refer to Regia Marina (Italian navy), some shipyards (Trieste?) at least used the green anti-fowling paint. Battleship Roma is a well documented example.

SMS Emden/Dresden were never part of the 'Reichsmarine' in Germany, but of the 'Kaiserliche Marine'. And all sources I have seen of German warships in WW1 had red anti-fouling paint on their hulls, even supported with colour paintings of the period, (Claus Bergen is a good source to watch for).


Although this statement may be true, it is a bit steep to say that ALL ships of these navies had green paint below the waterline.

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023