The Ship Model Forum

Best count I have for 20 MM is 19. 1 on the bow, 2 forward of the forward 40 MM mounts, 2 abreast the flag bridge, 2 on the platform above the forward directors, 2 abreast the forward funnel, 2 on the superstructure between the hangar roof and the aft 5" gun deck, 2 abreast the aft superstructure aft of the boat davits, 4 on the aft tripod around the aft 5" director and 2 in a tub on the fantail. I just finished my 5 incarnation of this ship (the others didn't survive moves) and shots are posted in the online cruiser build contest on page 6 of the thread.

_________________
It's easier to beg foregiveness than it is to ask for permission.

Bob, I think we are talking 2 different Chicago's..."Savo Is." fit, and post-repairs fit. I believe you are referring to Chicago, circa Dec 1942. After repairs/refit from her Savo is damage, her CXAM was moved from the mainmast to the fwd tripod, bridge reduced, 40mm replaced 1.1", more 20mm added, etc, etc... She was pretty well documented for her final version, however her earlier war appearance his much more murky! Which is why we get all excited when any new info. is presented!!:)

Jerry P

true enough, sorry 'bout that chief

_________________
It's easier to beg foregiveness than it is to ask for permission.

Northampton (CA-26) at Pearl Harbor, 1942. Photo scanned at the National Archives. This was one of the first photos I scanned, and I forgot to note which box it came from (duh), but I believe it was from RG 19LCM, specifically from the boxes with the CM class ships in it. This is cropped from a larger picture showing the wreck of USS Oglala (CM-4) in drydock, the cruisers are in the background - I guess in the Navy Yard. Pensacola (CA-24) is across the pier from her. Also looks like West Virgina or California is behind the CAs, in the extreme right of the photo.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Hi Martin,

That would be California in the background. http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014493.jpg
Is this the best resolution you have for this photo?

Here is the caption: Pearl Harbor, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii view looking northward, with the Navy Yard industrial area in the foreground and the Marine Barracks in the lower right, 28 July 1942. Ford Island is at left, with Oklahoma (BB-37) and Arizona (BB-39) under salvage nearby. San Diego (CL-53) is in the upper center.
West Virginia (BB-48) is in Drydock Number One, in the lower left, and California (BB-44) is alongside the wharf at the extreme right. Cruisers alongside the pier in right center are Northampton (CA-26) (left) and Pensacola (CA-24). Submarines alongside 1010 Dock, just beyond Drydock # 1, are Trout (SS-202), Pollack (SS-180), Dolphin (SS-169) and Cachalot (SS-170). Note camouflage on many of the Navy Yard's buildings.

Based on a higher rez copy of Martin's photo above, I can now positively ID 12 20MM locations for Northampton's last outfit. At the time of her loss, she had 2 20MM on the foremast platform immediately aft of the rangefinder, 2 in the bridge wings at the navigation bridge level, 2 at the O-1 level just ahead of the forward pair of quad 1.1's, 4 on the main top platform around the base of the after MK-19 AA director, and the last pair on the fantail. Additionally, it is confirmed that she had a CXAM-1 by the time of Martin's photo. As far as I can tell, the switch from a CXAM to a CXAM-1 was unique. Apparently, either the original CXAM was damaged or it was defective.

Hello everyone, I have a question about USS. Chester late war. There seems to be a new rangefinder mounted between her aft main RF & her secondary aft RF. In this photo it's the lowest of the three aft. Was this added at her last refit? what was it's purpose etc.
Is that from another ship masked behind her?
Thank you,
Harry
http://www.scrapcombatships.com/
http://www.modelwarshipcombat.com/

_________________
I battle 1:144 combat warships, yes they shoot & yes they sink. (and yes they are back on the water in minutes). Would you like to know more?
http://www.modelwarshipcombat.com/
http://www.scrapcombatships.com/

The '45 refits tried to address the problem of "director saturation" by overwhelming numbers of kamikaze aircraft. Therefore, many additional directors were added. ANY director, including the very limited MK-51's, were preferable to trying to engage an aircraft without director control. The MK-51's could even be used for directing part of the 5" battery. The following photo shows what is actually in the area you indicated. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/027/0402723.jpg There were other types of directors that were superior and had "blind fire" capability, but production could not keep up with the demand, so they installed whatever was available.

Great point. I assume since her last refit was so late, she got another rangefinder where the 40mm rangefinders are in the navsource image.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/027/0402723.jpg
It makes perfect sense to have more RF's with the Kamikaze threat. I believe her sisters got a 20mm gallery in that location.

Harry

_________________
I battle 1:144 combat warships, yes they shoot & yes they sink. (and yes they are back on the water in minutes). Would you like to know more?
http://www.modelwarshipcombat.com/
http://www.scrapcombatships.com/

Navsource has recently listed her 4-letter call sign thanks to a former crew member (Radiomen).

It was: Nan - Item - Queen - Fox

In NATO code it was: November - India - Quebec - Foxtrot

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/030/04030.htm

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Gentlemen, I have some questions about USS Houston in regards to her appearance during Dec 1941 to March of 1942. I know this is a highly disputed subject area and a proverbial can of worms but bare with me please. All photos are from CA-30s website: http://www.usshouston.net/

I've come across these shots of her in Darwin Harbor circa Feb 1942.


Here's the famous shots of USS Peary (DD-226) alongside:




Enlargement of the last one:


Here's an artist's conception of her paint scheme Feb 1942



I know the ships of the Asiatic fleet were ordered to be painted into Ms. 1 camo but since they didn't have enough (or any at all) of 5-D they used a custom mix of what they had and Cavite Blue was born.

Question one, WHEN was that order given and is there any info, documentation, whatsoever, of which ships were painted in Cavite Blue?

Question two, Were all of the ships of the Asiatic fleet still in pre-war gray come Dec 7th or had some of the other schemes come into use like Ms. 1, 2, 11, 12 or 21?

The issue I have with those photos is two fold. In the first one you can clearly see that she is wearing a very dark color (known to be Cavite Blue) on her hull and most of the superstructure. Her forward superstructure, mainmast, and maybe even the forward funnel appear to be in a much lighter color.

Question three, would that light color be 5-L or could it be pre-war Standard Navy Gray indicating that she was undergoing a re-paint but hadn't finished yet?

In the following two photos with DD-216 alongside things seem to change. I know the photos are small and on the blurry side but the tones are still there. If you look at both ships hull's, they appear to be a very dark color while everything above the main deck on CA-30 appear to a very light color.

Question four, could that be further evidence of her undergoing a re-paint and it was simply shot earlier than the other photo or could that be overall Cavite Blue at the time and the lighting is simply playing tricks?

I know trying to tell color from black and white photography is far from an exact science but you can clearly tell that which tones are the same and which are different.

Since the photos are sparse and not precisely dated its impossible to draw exact exact conclusions. I'm simply looking for educated guesses guys. I'm working on a project about the Asiatic Fleet and want to do some posters of the ships with color profiles. A model of her during this time period is on my "to-do" list as well. I know we'll probably never the exact colors but I want to try and make them as accurate as possible given today's information.

Any and all help is appreciated as always.

Thanks for looking,
-Mike

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

The first photo shows that the colour faded strongly or partly even missing. Other early USN blues had problems with fading, perhaps this is also true for Cavite Blue? And this explains the differences between the photos? I am not sure about the difference between the hull and superstructure visible on the photo with Peary alongside. It could be also the angle of the surface relative to the sun, but I would consider two different colours also to be likely. Or it is the same kind of effect visible on the hull in the first photo explains the difference. E.g. if you compare the bridge with the hull and the hull forward and near the stern.

_________________

You know that's a good point, don't know why fading didn't cross my mind That first photo looks like she could be in the middle of painting the second coat of Cavite Blue and only the bow has been done so far. Leaving the faded looking sections to possible be the result of one coat. Paint adherence problems could be another issue. Hmmm...

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Hello,

I think the issue of CA-30's paint scheme over the years has become very blurry, and unnecessarily. The ship's main surfaces were not painted after war began, pure & simple; her decks were covered in Cavite Blue, not her hull or upperworks, etc. (Boise underwent a similar deck paintjob, and it is documented.)
She was painted prewar, and the Robert Martin photo of her in Manila Bay in 1941 shows some evidence of Ms1, but it is still questionable. Ship was "stripped" prior to war, although some additional "stripping" was done at Surabaja in December, 1941. (This of course was internal work.)
I believe all of the pics posted above show the degradation of her paintjob, such as it was, but the idea that she had time to be thoroughly re-painted once war began is absurd...or, as a CA-30 survivor told me more than once: "That would've been an all-hands evolution, and we had other things to do." No kidding.

So, take a deep breath, and recognize that the ship went into war uncamouflaged for all intents and purposes, but that her decks were darkened--for obvious reasons--and that was about it. The artist's conception is incorrect in showing the bridge levels painted lighter gray. The Ms1 camo began above the bridge (& above the MK19 DP director) levels...

RE the Asiatic Fleet's fourpipers--they were not uniform in appearance either due to the fact that some were in yard when war broke out, others in various ports to the south of the P.I., etc. Large AF-style hull numbers had been painted out before the war, too.

One should also bear in mind that when these old vessels went on a war footing for real, one of the very first things they did when stripping ship was to get rid of most of their paint. Too flammable!

FWIW,

Don

I don't think that the paint scheme was necessarily added post Pearl Harbor. From mid 1941 on, the fleet was supposed to be in MS-1. Cavite didn't have the requisite stocks of the 5-D to accomplish the MS in "standard" form. It was my understanding from the previous posts that the "Cavite Blue" was the Cavite yard's pre-war attempt to mix something approaching 5-D from local stocks, and the extemporized MS-1 was done shortly before the war. Since they were probably also lacking the 20-B deck blue, it would make sense for them to use the same local mix to cover the wood deck once the war actually started. Any hull painting post Pearl Harbor would, as you indicated, probably only be touch-up maintenance, not a full-scale repainting. The hull in the early-war photos is too dark to be any version of the pre-war "standard Navy gray" (with or without weathering), so they obviously did something to it! In the tropical sun, paint tends to fade rather than darken. The photos seem to show a darker paint on the hull that has faded in large areas (which supports your assertion that it was not repainted after Pearl). Even the faded patches are darker than the superstructure, and the pre-war Navy gray was so light that the only way the superstructure could have been lighter is if it had been painted white.

If the artists version showing the lower bridge colors as light grey is incorrect, why does it appear that way in the Darwin Harbor photo? The photo appears to be taken on an overcast day so the effect of the sun would seem not to be a factor in effecting the tones.

Cheers
BC

Some photos of Northampton at Santa Cruz, courtesy of Fred Branyan, who just made a trip the NARA II in College Park, MD.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Thank you Martin for passing these along!



Bob Pink.

Greetings

Thanks Martin for posting the photos.

If anyone else is building this model, I have a bunch of unpublished 41-2 photos here courtesy of Dave Shadell. If you need any let me know.

For anyone who would like to duplicate minute details, there are white objects visible below the main mast at deck level. My good friend and Navy vet Bob Morales enlightened me as to what they are. See a copy of his email below.

Hi Fred, Nice photo's , the white objects on the life lines appear to be the crews "FART SACKS" we would do air bedding and do it by divisions. You had to fold over the sack and secure with the safety belt that came with each bunk. If you had rough seas and planned to get some zzz's it would behoove one to strap it across his body to prevent him from rolling out onto the deck !. On large ship's laundry was collected by each division and brought down to the ship's laundry in large canvas sack's when all was washed and cleaned compartment cleaners would pickup the sacks and distribute the items to each rack that's why every piece was stenciled. That's my thought on the white objects, could be something else. They could have been in the process of air bedding when GQ was sounded you dropped every thing and went to your stations. Best, Bob

_________________
FRED BRANYAN

Currently building the YKM 1/350 Northampton as she appeared at Santa Cruz.

I think Dick J got it right in his 5/2/11 post except for one easy to miss 20 MM in a tub at the end of turret 3 closest to the aft tripod mast. There is a photo of Chester taken from the stern with a similar position in August of 42 at navsource. This 20 MM position is in the Northampton photo which Martin posted in July. This makes the total for CA 26 at 13 of these guns.

_________________
FRED BRANYAN