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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Much appreciated - though I'm a bit confused now. The picture posted earlier in this thread of CA-30 at Darwin in February of 1942 shows a very clear "grey" paint on the pilothouse above the 02 level, as well as the forward Mark 19 director. That's the source I used when applying the light grey in the non-standard Measure 1 pattern.

For reference:
Image

Thanks for the correction re: the mainmast - I just used a "best guess" for that area based on the above photo. By the way, if you have photos of this ship that aren't available online, would you mind posting them for all to see? To me - it looks like the lighter shade extends down to the radio shack under the mainmast. Keep in mind that I'm basing my opinion off one photo, and quite literally have never seen any others that would sway my opinion. The photo at Tjilitjap makes it appear as though the mainmast was all one color.

Re: the date of the image, I would think "February 1942" would be a better choice just based on the fact that my drawing depicts the ship at Darwin, its last known scheme before its loss on March 1?

Greatly appreciate any/all feedback you can provide!

Cheers
Ian


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:00 pm 
Hello,

I understand the confusion...It's been around for a little while (~75 years). I should also note that none of the HOUSTON vets I knew over many years -- that is, over a quarter century period -- ever recalled or acknowledged painting her to any appreciable extent after Nov. 30, 1941. Maybe some touch-ups and painting out of bright stuff, but no extensive painting, period. I do believe that explains to a great degree her slapdash appearance at Darwin. Lots of time at sea, much very hard work, and NO real yard-time.
I absolutely believe the Cavite Blue was, as noted, a quite fugitive paint and weathered/faded rapidly.

The best image of her in Measure 1 that has been published (AFAIK) is in the 1985 Duane Schultz book THE LAST BATTLE STATION, and is in the first batch of photos. It shows a group of sailors & Marines going ashore in a launch w/CA-30 in the background.
You can see that the Sky Aft & Sky Fwd directors are both dark and that the lighter gray begins just as I described: above funnel top level.
Interestingly a good quality enlargement of it--I have one that is ~ 11" x 14"--shows that she still retained at that time her 3"/50cal gun in the No. 1 position.
Going by those two images you can't go wrong if you begin the lighter gray on the foremast tripod just above the Fwd MK19 and on the mainmast just above the top of the searchlights.

Somewhere I have a small image of LOUISVILLE in Measure 1 and it is very similar, color intensity-wise, especially on the bridge area & wings, etc. which also appear to be lighter, but an interesting difference in her scheme is that the forward MG platform on the foremast is painted dark also.

HTH


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Yeah, I completely understand - those guys had much more important things to do than paint the ship. ;) I just ordered a copy of the book you mentioned from Amazon.

I made some edits based on what you've told me, take a look: http://test.shipbucket.com/drawings/3989/file


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:05 pm 
Excellent.
One other small detail to add: she had life-rafts on the sides of both Turret 1 & Turret 2, and atop them as well. No question of that.

I should also note that another pic of CA-30 in her Ms. 1 scheme is shown in a photo used in her 1940 Xmas Dinner menus...That is the same one I have enlarged, BTW. I think it is available online, but not sure where. (I cannot post images, unfortunately.) That tells us that she painted in the Ms. 1 for the first time between late Nov. 1940 when she assumed the flag--we have many photos of that week--from "Augie Maru" (CA-31) and Xmas 1940.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:56 am 
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Ah, excellent - I can even see them in the Darwin photos, not sure how I missed that. Will correct and re-upload shortly.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:02 pm 
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G-Opt,

I doubt that USS HOUSTON was painted in Ms 1 in November 1940. The Ms 1 scheme was formally available with the publication of the Ships 2 Camo Instructions in January 1941 and wasn't widely applied until Spring and summer of 1941 due to a lack of 5D paint mix. Can you point to the November 1940 photo available on-line somewhere?

The only image I could find that may suggest Ms 1(cavite blue), is the first image. But, the same image is available elsewhere and appears as the 2nd image.

The first image appears to be a multi-generation copy of the second image and that the contrast has been enhanced.

Image

Image

The old NHHC website has this same image here ... http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineL ... h81592.jpg ...

And is also available on the new NHHC website as a hi-res TIFF download ... https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 81592.html ....

Below is a paragraph from the same 6 December 1941 letter talked about earlier in this thread, discusses the relative "shade" of Cavite Blue and that it "tends to fade and lack durability". Since it was made from local ingredients and likely painted over the peacetime paint scheme, sun fading, bleed through, and wear-tear particularly on the hull, produces a pretty light shade and as seen in many of the 1942 photos, a motley appearance. Reference "b" was the Ship 2 Camo instructions dated January 1941. Reference "c" was the Revised Ships 2 Camo instructions date September 1941.

I have not seen any statements about when USS HOUSTON or any of the other Asiatic Fleet units actually painted with Cavite Blue. Likely it wasn't until the summer of 1941.

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:58 pm 
At first glance that seems to be a very good point. And, as noted, the msg from Hart right before the war tells us that the Cavite Blue was a poor quality paint.

However, the photos you put up are not very useful at all, as you will agree, but the NH # 81592 is very good & illustrative...Sadly, the linked NHHC copy is quite poor. But that image is the one I have a large, much better quality print of [9" x 13.5"] which clearly shows the darker paint up to funneltop level & both MK19 directors in dark paint. More significantly, it is the photo used on the 1940 "Season's Greetings" Xmas card (which I also have a good photo of here.)
So it makes all of this painting business an intriguing little riddle.

I have a set of four scanned pix of HOUSTON at Cavite in the process of being repainted into Cavite Blue (or whatever darker shade was employed), and while the scans are of mediocre quality you can make out men on her forefunnel repainting it, with a very good view of the contrasting pigments, etc. Determining it as Cavite is verified by the SOCs on her cats which are already in the AF scheme--very different from their Hawaiian Detachment/Scouting Force scheme--and by the presence of Hart's flag atop the mainmast. He was only on board the cruiser from late November 1940 until late June, 1941 when the flag went ashore into its new digs at Manila. Obviously, one thing that it gives us is a much better idea of the extent to which that darker hue faded.

I also own a small, but beautiful quality image of CA-30 at anchor off Cavite after being repainted. Happily, it has now been published in a brand-new book--unfortunately the graphics are not as sharp or as large as one would hope, but...you can't have everything. It shows the cruiser with her fore-funnel cap painted gray, and I now suspect that must have been an interim thing...because there is no question she had her funnel tops painted black in the war. The more I think about it, it probably was taken at the time of the four other scans of the ship being repainted.

Also, as regards the photo you posted: I know that first generation copies are in the Guthrie Layne photo album. GL was a Texan, and a member of HOUSTON's 1st Division and did not survive the war, BTW. In fact I probably have some far better ones myself that I acquired almost 25 years ago when we made actual copies with real cameras in the university's reprographics section, but for copyright reasons I never post them online, or publish them in my own work. The GL album, which is now at Texas A&M, is very important as a historical photo record of the ship as well as her men.
I mention Guthrie for a reason, and not just to drop names.
Although I really don't want to expend the time to do it, I have copies (or access to) CA-30 deck logs going back at least to her reassignment to the AF (Nov 1940), and many, many fragments of earlier years--and could examine when she first went out to the Degaussing Range at Manila after her return. I am ~95% certain that the [Guthrie Layne] pics were taken when she was on the Degaussing Range, and that was probably very soon after she returned. Because, as most researchers know, painting the ship is not usually recorded in a Deck Log, but degaussing details often are...
That image you put up [not NH # 81592] is the same one in CAPT Walter Winslow's book THE GHOST THAT DIED AT SUNDA STRAIT, and it says 1941, but Walt had no real firm idea about that date, bless his soul. Therefore, do not be misled by that, I mean.

A number of the guys who went out on CA-30 in late 1940 to the AF (& who, like Guthrie Layne, were killed) took a great many pictures on their journey to the Asiatic Station (so you see a lot of photos of Pearl Harbor & Guam) and soon after their arrival at Cavite/Manila.
After early 1941 (say, spring) the photos really seemed to drop off. Another factor was the decision to send home navy dependents beginning at the same time (late 1940) and continuing through the spring of 1941. I would say that some of the last DATED photos I have of CA-30 or her planes or men are from March, 1941. Some photo albums seem to have been returned home at that time, in other words. They are remarkably rare, believe me.

One final thought provoked by this discussion: I almost wonder if they painted the ship in this Measure 1(type) scheme in late Nov or Dec 1940, and then, finding it really problematic, repainted her or altered the scheme again?

FWIW

P.S.-- If this site would let me get back on & allow me to post photos from my own collection that I own the rights to, or are in Public Domain, I would be happy to do so. I am a bit frustrated at not being able to post photos but it would not recognize the name I registered under ("Guro Optimo") and I haven't tried to rectify that PIA. I used to have a fotobucket account but understand those have been hijacked now, so not sure how to post pics, really.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Please note that the image I posted and linked to in various versions, was taken with the sun above and slightly to the portside. Hence the vertical surfaces on the starboard side are in the shade. How film camera photos are taken (settings, sun conditions, film type Orthochromatic or Panchromatic, etc) and processed negatives and prints will vary the contrast and darkness of the image as well. I use to process my own (B&W) negatives and produce prints back in the 1970s. I could adjust an image on a print quite a bit to suit what was desired in pulling out details. I have run into a full range of exposures of photos at NARA. In some cases the same photo can be found in different places as prints of different contrasts and quality. Many high contrast images are actually made from copy negatives of an original first generation print.

The NHHC rescanned the prints/negatives they have for the "new" website and many of the images look worse than the old website images that Chuck Haberlein scanned. I'm not sure why, but one comment I heard was that the contractor didn't use a flatbed scanner, but used hi-res digital cameras to speed the process.

So the image I posted and linked to (and all the same image) is the same image as used on the 1940 Christmas "Season's Greetings"?

The USN was doing a lot of experimenting with camo in the immediate years before WWII, but no mention has been found of USS HOUSTON being part of any of the experiments going on out of San Diego and Pearl Harbor in 1941. There is a lot of documentation of the various schemes tried and observed at Pearl Harbor during 1941. No mention that the Asiatic Fleet did any of these tests. Her yard photos at her last overhaul at MINY shows that she was still painted in peacetime colors at that point in September 1940. If she had been repainted prior to going to the Asiatic Fleet, there would have been no need to repaint her into Ms 1 using local paints. Why would they have made up a paint to try and match 5S ... they were NOT trying to match 5D in Ms 1, but Ms 1 with 5S ... when 5S didn't even exist in November-December 1940? I still think repainting would have been more likely during the summer of 1941 after the April 1941 change of USA policy to actually defend the Philippines. The four photos you reference of her being painted at Cavite during or shortly before June 1941 would fit into that date range. But, also, couldn't the Admiral's flag be flown if he was onboard?

Have you tried E-Mailing Tim Dike, the webmaster directly about your problems? His E-Mail address is on the main page. I know if you change your E-mail address, your account can end up in suspension.

It certainly would help to post some of your images to see what your information shows. If worse comes to worse, once you are back on Modelwarships, you can contact me via a PM then you could send images to me and I can post any images you which to provide via Photobucket ... I reluctantly paid the ransom so i many as well get additional use out of it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:52 pm 
Well, it's a bit of mystery, but I like mysteries.

However, the image you posted is NOT the same as the linked image. No, no, no. Completely different.
CA-30 is underway in the posted photo--steaming on the Degaussing Range--but she's at anchor in the NH 81592.

I think the 1940 Xmas card pic [same as NH 81592] is pretty conclusive evidence--obviously they weren't printing up such cards in late December 1941 & sending them home...

But there's absolutely no question they threw some darker paint on her at least once. She was being run very hard throughout 1941 & took a lot wear & tear, so perhaps they painted her again. And in their version of Ms.1 at that point?

Not sure what to do about the account. AFAIK I didn't change my email, but...I hadn't posted in quite a while. Seems a pity, though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Please see Method 2 for posting images using a host other than Photobucket: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1261

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:43 pm 
Thanks for the photo posting tips.

Now that I go back & review some old photo-albums & online sources (like NHHC), I see that a number of these photos are duplicated, so it's hard to determine precise provenance. Some that are in multiple individual scrapbooks are also at NHHC, and must surely have been official USN pix.

Anyway, I am now questioning the degaussing range info I had, and will only say that those pics of CA-30 seem to have been taken in Manila Bay. And in those the ship is still in her PacFlt light gray scheme.

However, I did come across some interesting data in one CA-30 photo album: a pic of a sinking merchant ship outside the breakwater at Manila, dated June 1941.

Then I noticed that the other pic which seems to show the ship in Ms. 1 (& is in Duane Schultz's book) reads "Recreation party Tawi-tawi"--so, by examining the cruiser's deck logs for 1941 we can tell exactly when she was in at least 'a version' of that scheme.

Beyond this, I am mystified, and disinclined to tear up materials again that I've just started to put away after a very lengthy & onerous project, so will--for now--take your very sensible suggestion, and believe that the ship wasn't painted into Ms 1 until later than I had thought. If I happen to stumble across anything later that alters or amplifies this, I'll try to post it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:45 pm 
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The off topic discussion on scanners has been culled from this thread and moved here.

Let's try and keep these threads ON TOPIC, boys, they are large and unwieldy enough as it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:21 am 
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Hello guys,
I am now focusing my attention on gathering reference for USS Chicago at the time of the Battle of Savo Island. I bought the Corsair Armada 1/700 kit (edit: USS Houston, relevant for Chicago at Savo) - looks quite good - and the Profile Morskie plans. I searched the web for photos and indeed I went through this thread which is very helpful, although unfortunately some photos posted here were not available anymore.
I would be very grateful for any help to make my reference more complete and detailed. Also any suggestions for modifications needed on the Corsair Armada kit etc.
Thanks!

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Last edited by Vladi on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:51 am 
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check this link. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/029/04029.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:42 am 
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If I recall correctly, the Corsair Armada kit depicts Chicago "as sunk" in early 1943.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:48 am 
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@DavidP: thanks for your help. I already checked the usual resources like Google, Navsource, NHHC, AWM, Flickr, Pinterest etc. and also books like Friedman and Squadron/signal. I was able to locate 8 photos dated January to August 1942 (not counting those showing details of the torpedo-damaged bow and those taken from a really large distance) but unfortunately they are not much helpful in most cases due to their viewpoint, low level of detail and/or resolution. The "best" of them (for my use) are these three:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C44839
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1149295
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C258533
but unfortunately their quality is quite low. I´d need to be able to see clearly the details of superstructures etc. but I am not confident enough that the original photos would be so good that it would be worth ordering a hi-res tiff file for $40 each...
There are some nice hi-res photos showing Chicago in great detail after her late-42 refit but these are not relevant to my build.
Anyway, let´s see if something better pops up.

@MartinJQuinn: you are indeed right - I forgot to mention that I´ve got Corsair Armada´s USS Houston kit, not Chicago :) That should do it for the Chicago at Savo Island with some minor mods, some of them are already mentioned in the instructions of the kit.

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Last edited by Vladi on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:02 am 
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There is this photo from Wikipedia, showing Chicago in August 1942, when the CXAM was on the mainmast, not on the foremast.

I know I've seen others of her prior to Savo...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:19 am 
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Yes, that is the second one of the three above, I even found a hi-res version of it at Flickr https://flic.kr/p/TNdaz9. Very nice one (although I think it is a bit distorted vertically, judging from the CXAM dimensions) but still not much usable for detailing the ship.
This is all I was able to find for the time period so far (except the ones showing only the damaged bow in dry dock):
(edit: just found one more with some detail :) )


Attachments:
File comment: Photos of USS Chicago January till August 1942
chicago 01-08 1942.JPG
chicago 01-08 1942.JPG [ 113.3 KiB | Viewed 185 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:00 pm 
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The Australian photos were really helpful when I built my model of USS Chicago many years ago. I had not found any other good photos showing any details. But the small preview photos were useless, I had to order the high resolution copies.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Thanks a lot, it is a great help knowing that the AWM photos are helpful in hi-res!

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