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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:50 pm 
Pensacola 20mm fit...circa 6/42.....from Model Art Mag #21
2-20mm O-1 level as you described
2-20mm atop bridge just fwd of director tubs
2-20mm atop deckhouse aft of fwd funnel....no STS
2-20mm atop dechouse aft of aft funnel as you described
2-20mm atop aft tripod next to aft Mk-19 as you described
1-20mm atop #3 turret as you described

Total 11-20mm

I have no knowledge if this correct, and honestly MUCH of the plans/data in this mag. are subject to debate. Also I would guess that more 20mm were as added later 1942.

Jerry Phillips


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:55 pm 
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Thanks Jerry,
I also have the Model Art #21, but also believe it may have some problems. I believe the 4 guns on the forward superstructure, the 2 in the structure aft of the second funnel, the 2 on the tripod mainmast, and the 1 on the No. 3 turret are correct. I am not sure about the ones aft of the first funnel. There are some clear photos of Pensacola at a distance and I can't make these two out on those photos. This area is covered with awning in the battle damage photos taken at Tulagi.

I also have the Critical Past photos from a film of Pensacola dock side in Pearl Harbor in July of 1942, but the film is blurry and with the 5-N paint the 20 mm don't stand out in most areas of the superstructure. The area aft of the first funnel in these photos is clear and there are no 20 mm present at that time. There are two stacks of two large rafts located aft of the funnel. However, there does appear to be splinter shields adjacent to the tripod mainmast at the 01 level in the location of the ship's boats that could be 20 mm, but the photo just is not clear enough from the film to tell. I have looked at the Navsource closeup photos taken at Tulagi after the torpedo damage and it appears that there could be the remains of a 20 mm gun and gun tub just under the the 8" gun barrels to the left next to the sailor . Anyone have any thoughts after looking at this photo (I think the photo number is 0402440)?

Another interesting note from these photos and the film is that there appears to be main deck space between the aft superstructure where the tripod main mast is located and the gun deck around the second funnel. The Tulagi photos also indicate that this space was open at this time. The Midship Models 1939 kit has a deck house between the two structures. I think this is incorrect based on Baker's plans of Pensacola in 1939 in Friedman's US Cruiser book (page 120) and at least some of this structure needs to be removed for 1942 and all of it needs to go for 1939. This area was not filled in until the later refits. Not an easy task to remove with a block of resin. The H-P kit of Pensacola has the space without a structure.
Frank Fowler


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:16 pm 
Frank...I'm looking through Terzibaschitsch's Cruiser book, which you may have also. In the armament comparative tables for Pensacola: "1941" (obvious mistake) 9-20mm (no locations given). Again this book contains many errors...but you may be correct in that maybe the standard 12-20mm were not, at least initially, fitted. According some notes I took (source?), Pensacola did not receive her 20mm until 3/42 at PH. I had the same plan as yourself in regard to the old CW Pensacola '39 to '42 version...until I saw the kit itself! This was years ago, but I was not impressesd, especially for the price. I haver never seen the HP kit....better than the CW/Midships kit?

Jerry Phillips


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Frank Fowler wrote:
I also have the Critical Past photos from a film of Pensacola dock side in Pearl Harbor in July of 1942, but the film is blurry and with the 5-N paint the 20 mm don't stand out in most areas of the superstructure.

What search criteria did you use to find the video from which the stills were lifted?
Frank Fowler wrote:
Another interesting note from these photos and the film is that there appears to be main deck space between the aft superstructure where the tripod main mast is located and the gun deck around the second funnel. The Tulagi photos also indicate that this space was open at this time. The Midship Models 1939 kit has a deck house between the two structures. I think this is incorrect based on Baker's plans of Pensacola in 1939 in Friedman's US Cruiser book (page 120) and at least some of this structure needs to be removed for 1942 and all of it needs to go for 1939. This area was not filled in until the later refits. Not an easy task to remove with a block of resin. The H-P kit of Pensacola has the space without a structure.

The deckhouse was damaged by the torpedo and removed as part of the lightening of the ship. You can see the damaged structure in this photo referenced for the possible remains of a 20MM. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/024/0402440.jpg Note how much of the splinter screening is missing in the photo with the missing deckhouse. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/024/0402415.jpg This photo of Salt Lake City shows that the structure was there pre-war on this class. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/025/0402532.jpg The partially removed structure can be seen here. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/024/0402443.jpg If there was a space, it was a fairly short one.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Hi Dick,
The Critical Past film is one that was posted on Steelnavy several weeks ago so I did not do a search; however, the title that is with the film is "United States ships enter the Navy base in Hawaii, United States". I don't know if this will help but one of the photo file numbers that I ordered is 65675062973_000644. As for the structure under the aft tirpod mast I did make this out on some other photos; however, I still don't think it extends all the way between the gun deck and the aft structure. There seems to be a girder boat rack there in part of this area. This shows up on a Life photo of SLC early in the war (try here http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/6c00d758dbfb3b18_large) and looking at the prewar photo on page 123 in Friedman's book the structure from overhead seems to be walls only with no roof, but still can't tell if it goes all the way between the gun deck and aft structure. I agree that it would be a short space and that is what the Critical Past photos seem to show. An interesting find on the Life photo of SLC is that there are no reinforcing ribs on the 5" gun shields. Pensacola seems to have the ribs. There also seems to be a small structure on SLC near/underneath the aft tripod mast that Pensacola doesn't show in the Critical Past photos or in the Navsource photo dated September 1942.

Hi Jerry,
I do have the Terzibaschitsch book and agree that it is suspect at times with some of the information and drawings; however, it has been a good reference for me for many years (got it in 1989) and for a long time the only reference available to me. I think 9 20 mm may be correct or the best we can get at this point for Pensacola in 1942.

As for the H-P kit, I cannot recommend it. It is one of the early kits and is a mixed bag. The hull is 0.18" short and some parts are unuseable. The MS release of the CW kit is much nicer than the old CW kit. MS did away with the PE bridge and replaced the metal turrets and funnels with much nicer resin parts; however, while the hull of the CW/MS kit measures close to the correct length (WL 570" is 9.77" in 1/700) at 9.75", a mistake was made on the forward part of the hull. The Baker plans on page 120 of Friedman's book are in approximately 1/735 scale. Measuring from the tip of the bow to the face of the two deck structure under the No. 2 8" turret is 2.1" on the Baker plan. Measuring from the same points on the CW/MS hull has this same distance of 2.1". It should be approximately 2.21" in 1/700 so the first two turrets and the structure are .11" too far froward. This cannot really be corrected on the kit since the structure is molded on the hull. The H-P kit hull is correct in the placement of structures and spacing from the bow to the aft end of the gun deck aft of the No. 2 funnel. The kit loses .08" at the aft end of the gun deck in the hull and the gun deck length. It loses another .06" in the hull from the aft end of the No. 4 8" turret and the stern. The H-P kit does capture the rise in the forward part of the gun deck forward of the second funnel, the side opening below the gun deck, and the open areas under the gun deck that are present on the SLC and Pensacola, but missing on the CW/MS kit.

We can only hope that someone like Mike at Corsair Armada does new early and Late Pensacola and SLC kits to the same standard as his other cruisers. I may try and add plugs to the HP hull and do some mix and match part swap with the MS kit plus other aftermarket items to get something that is close to the Pensacola 1942. The error in the forward part of the MS hull has really put me off from using the MS kit.
Frank Fowler


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:10 pm 
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I have been going over the photos and have found 11 fairly certain 20MM positions. (Check the photo of Pensacola at Midway on June 25th.) 2 at the O-3 level just below the bridge (Turret II is at the O-2), 2 atop the bridge in the projections on either side of the centerline leg of the tripod, 2 further up on the rangefinder platform slightly aft of the centerline leg, the two between the searchlights aft of the second funnel, the two on the after MK-19 platform, and the one on Turret III. If there are two at the O-1 forward of Turret III, that would make 13. On St Louis during the same timeframe, I can only locate 11, but have no photos of her starboard side prior to Nov '42. Boise had 13 during the middle part of '42 as did Cleveland when she completed. Salt Lake City had 2 just aft of the forward funnel, but I have seen nothing in the photos to indicate the same for Pensacola at the time in question. Can either of you confirm these locations?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:36 pm 
Dick...it appears that the CriticalPast video shows no 20mm just aft of fwd funnel, only raft stacks (as Frank mentioned). Link to video:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675062973_United-States-base-ships-enter-a-

Jerry Phillips


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Thanks Jerry! It does appear that there is a bit of a gap in the after superstructure. It also appears that there is something in a tub at the O-1 level at the base of the mainmast. What is less clear is what is in the tub. Perhaps a 20MM? Have you been able to check the other 20MM locations I mentioned?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:34 pm 
Dick,
It took me a while to find the June 25, 1942 photo. I had seen it before, but did not have a copy. I found it on the wwiiarchive.net site. On that site it is shown twice with two different photo numbers, one dated 3-5 June and the one 25 June. Both noting bringing Marine reinforcements to Midway.

From looking at the photo it does appear that there is a 20 mm shield between the legs of the tripod mast. I also looked again at the Navsource photos of Pensacola dated May 1942 at Pearl Harbor and 28 September 1942. In both of these near broadside photos there appears to be the faint outline of two gun barrels pointed up between the forward leg and aft legs of the forward mast. You can see what may be another 20 mm barrel pointed up to the left of the aft MK 19 director on the May 1942 photo as a comparison. There also seems to be something showing in this location on the Navsource August 1942 photo, but it just seems to be some square shapes, again could be a 20 mm shield. It would make sense that 2 20 mm could be in the mast location since there were 4 .50 cal mg there earlier and we know Portland had two on the director platform on the foremast. It also couldn't be any worse to serve then the guns on the aft MK 19 director platform. So if this is the case there may be the 4 on the forward bridge structure, 2 on the foremast platform, 2 between the searchlights on the structure aft of the second funnel, 2 on the aft MK 19 director platform, and 1 on the No. 3 8" turret for a total of 11.

I am still not sure about what is on the 01 level below the mainmast tripod. There is another photo in the Navsource series dated December 1, 1942 showing the torpedo damage that was taken at the same time as the photo I noted on February 26, photo 0402440, that also shows something in this area. Photo 0402442 taken on board the ship looking forward from the area of the No. 3 8" turret before all the debris was cut away. You can see one of the legs of the tripod mainmast in the upper right hand corner of the photo. Just to the left of the leg is something that looks like some sort of mounting bolted to the deck titled up at an angle with the damaged splinter shielding to the left of the mount. I don't know what this is, but it seems too fat to be a 20 mm mount???? can any of you ID what this might be? If it is a 20 mm mount than there would be 13 total.

Frank Fowler


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:40 pm 
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Forgot to log in before posting the above response.
Frank Fowler


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:07 pm 
Photo of Pensacola 6/25/42, Midway Is. link:

http://ww2db.com/images/ship_pensacola4.jpg

BTW, there are some other views of ship taken same day (loading prisoners?), mostly closer-up...not really at the right angles to help.

Jerry Phillips


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Pensacola (CA-24) and Northampton (CA-26) at Pearl Harbor, 1942 (at first I thought it was 25 on the hull, then noticed the triple 8 inch guns in both forward turrets). Photo scanned at the National Archives. This was one of the first photos I scanned, and I forgot to note which box it came from (duh), but I believe it was from RG 19LCM, specifically from the boxes with the CM class ships in it. This is cropped from a larger picture showing the wreck of USS Oglala (CM-4) in drydock, the cruisers are in the background - I guess in the Navy Yard. Also looks like California is at the pier behind the CAs, in the extreme right of the photo. (Edit: Dick J confirmed it was California).


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:00 am 
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I am searching for informations about Salt Lake City during the Doolittle Raid.

There are only few photos of her in this period, which I have found:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:USS_Salt_Lake_City_%28CA-25%29_-_Bombardement_of_Wotje.jpg&filetimestamp=20100328105453
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/P02497.005

She appears to have:
4 1.1" quads (2 on the bridge wings, 2 near the stern)
2-4 2 cm Oerlikons on the platform with the Mk 19 director on the main mast
2-4 2 cm Oerlikons on the platform on the foremast, where earlier the MGs were located.

She has Mk 3 (FC) radar on the Mk 31 director, perhaps also SG on the foremast?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:59 pm 
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maxim wrote:
She has Mk 3 (FC) radar on the Mk 31 director, perhaps also SG on the foremast?

The Pensacola's carried the MK-22 director originally. Pensacola herself upgraded to MK-35's in 1945. The MK-31 was the main battery director on the New Orleans class. (And on the New Mexico's.)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:02 pm 
Critical Past film footage of Pensacola, Summer 1942.....http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063028_Military-policemen_ships-tied-at-pier_undergoing-repair_policemen-seated-in-jeep

This footage is much closer than the other footage I linked. Pensacola's aft 2 turrets, aft deckhouse, mainmast come into view at 44 sec mark. There is definitely 2 20mm w/ STS atop #3 turrets deckhouse, and there is indeed a gap between this deckhouse and the structure fwd.

Jerry


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Great find Jerry!!!! I just wish we had a decent kit of this class.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:43 pm 
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Were Salt Lake and Pensacola fairly similar (especially around '42) or were they more "distant" like Portland was to Indy?

Tia,

Chris


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:30 pm 
hey all,

I'm mostly an airplane modeler, but for a club project, I want to build the Salt Lake City in Oct.42 in 700th scale. Reading this thread, it appears as though the Midship Models is really the only game in town and that nobody is really sure how accurate it is in terms of 43 vs. 42. So my question is, what are some of the major things I would have to change to build the Midship Models kit as an Oct 42 SLC? It doesn't have to be perfect, just major items. Could I get some help from you guys in generating a list? I'm sure other people would benefit as well. Also, it appears the ship was painted overall gray at that time, would the deck have been painted gray by Oct.42?
Sorry for my silly questions, but I dont have any reference materials on the Salt Lake City and the pictures I've found online can only take me so far.

Thanks!

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:24 am 
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The two biggest items would be 1) reverting the bridge back to the original enclosed type, and 2) removing the 40MM, reverting to the 1.1's. Most of the rest is detail work.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Is this book worth having...pretty pricey since out of print. I'm working on the Pensacola at Midway. I have the Floating Drydock Salt Lake - I thought I could use them for the hull and very general structural arrangement, but the hull lines don't jive so the plans are of "very limited" use.

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