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 Post subject: HMS Kent
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:50 am 
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All:

Going through the IWM website last night, I came across a film of HMS Kent taken in Far Eastern waters in July and August 1939. It shows some really interesting details regarding Kent which I will discuss momentarily. I sent the link to our Japanese friend Mitsuaki Kubota who added the link and screen grabs to his review thread on Twitter of the 1/700 Aoshima HMS Kent kit. A few points:

Here is a screen grab of one of the 4" HA guns amidships, which shows that the steel deck around it had a grid pattern on it (similar to the grid pattern often used on the non-slip surfaces on the forecastle decks of British cruisers). Would anyone know whether non-slip grid patterns were applied to steel decks elsewhere than on the forecastle deck on other British ships? Note also the slightly raised wooden deck at the top of the screen which is probably the platform for the aft 4" HA gun:

https://twitter.com/fake_johnbull/statu ... 13792?s=20

And here on the left is a screen grab of the forecastle deck which shows the non-slip grid pattern on the steel deck forward of the breakwater (the Aoshima kit erroneously depicts the forecastle deck forward of the breakwater as covered by wooden planks--as it was on other ships of the class). The screen grab on the right shows the bridge deck, and just beyond the wind deflector fence, you can see a few wooden planks on the deck atop the forward deckhouse and around B turret. It shows that this deck was planked, whereas the kit shows it as a smooth steel deck.

https://twitter.com/EnjakuHaruzono/stat ... 03041?s=20

I should add that I guess it is always possible that semtex was applied over the steel deck amidships as well as over the forward deckhouse deck around B turret during her early war repairs, so it is possible that the kit is not incorrect in that respect. Thoughts?

If you would like to review the entire film, it can be found here:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... 1060009592

Most noteworthy for me were the segments showing the forecastle deck and anchor tackle gear at 10:05-11:00 and 15:27-15:42, and a panoramic view of the bridge at 16:00-16:21.

Finally, you can find Mitsuaki Kubota's wonderful Twitter review of the Aoshima HMS Kent kit here:

https://twitter.com/fake_johnbull/statu ... 90240?s=20

In short, a great kit, but with some unnecessary errors which will be a pain to correct (the wood-planked forecastle deck which should be steel with a grid pattern, and the deck atop the forward deckhouse which should be planked--but is smooth).

Enjoy!

Best,

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:46 pm 
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Mike, a good find and very relevant discrepancies noted for those planning to build Kent.

On the subject of film reels, this extra find may interest yourself and others.
Captioned under `Operation Menace` containing 3 reels.
Third reel, unfortunately not correct for that operation, shows Norfolk taken from HMAS Australia in Aug 40 whilst both cruisers were patrolling around Bear Is for blockade runners.
It shows merchantman Ericus bailed up for inspection, I cannot find any recorded information on that Finnish ship.
At that time she wore 2 completely different schemes port and strbd, port side was the complex scheme worn 2nd qtr of 40, and her strbd pattern was something similar to that recorded in WSP Vol 1 for early 41 but a new addition to her collection.


Attachments:
NORFOLK, 08.40.jpg
NORFOLK, 08.40.jpg [ 41.5 KiB | Viewed 1237 times ]
NORFOLK, 08.40intercept Ericus.jpg
NORFOLK, 08.40intercept Ericus.jpg [ 41.95 KiB | Viewed 1237 times ]
NORFOLK, 08.40 .jpg
NORFOLK, 08.40 .jpg [ 53.35 KiB | Viewed 1237 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:59 pm 
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Brett:

Thanks so much for sharing those! I always wondered if the scheme with the small warship profile superimposed on the port side of Norfolk was also on the starboard side. Now it appears that at least for part of her career, there were vastly different schemes on each side!

And here is the link for anyone interested: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... 1060020157

Thanks!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:48 am 
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In case it is of interest to anyone modeling the new kit of HMS Kent in 1940, she entered the Suez Canal 14 Aug 1940 on her way north to join the Mediterranean Fleet in overall light grey (507C) with clean wooden decks. Immediately on reaching the Mediterranean she painted over the light grey base a pattern of dark grey camouflage panels, some of which (see below) had thin medium grey edging strips.
Attachment:
Kent 22 Aug 1940.jpg
Kent 22 Aug 1940.jpg [ 148.08 KiB | Viewed 1049 times ]

This pattern was carried onto the decks but it looks (from film) like a stain rather than paint may have been used on the deck as there is not the same depth of colour (the caulking between the wooden planks still shows through once whatever is brushed on has settled). Note the chalk marks:
Attachment:
Kent 16 Aug 1940  pattern on deck.jpg
Kent 16 Aug 1940 pattern on deck.jpg [ 129.84 KiB | Viewed 1049 times ]

(The film MGH 2739 https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... 1060011105 is not available online but you can click the “Show more” button under the “Full description” heading to see where the dates for the above stills come from.)

Kent was therefore in this scheme when torpedoed on 17 September 1940. Confirmation of this comes in a photo of her, down by the stern, being assisted back into Alexandria by tugs on 19th September:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -162249759

It was originally possible to copy a better quality version of this photo. In that version it is just possible to discern the thin medium grey strip along both edges of the dark grey camouflage panel on the starboard quarter and to the rear edge of the centre hull panel. Forward of that it gets a bit fuzzy. Also I cannot make out whether this feather edging also existed at that time anywhere above the hull ie on the camouflage panels on the superstructure, turrets and funnels. My current interpretation is that it did not ie only hull (and deck given the chalk lines) camouflage panels had the medium grey edging. (Maybe someone has other images?)

She left the Mediterranean for full repairs in the UK in this scheme but during a stopover at Simonstown the pattern was repainted but with some adjustments. She arrived back in the UK as repainted at Simonstown:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205137112
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205136932


Last edited by dick on Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:59 am 
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Very interesting research you have done, Dick!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:37 am 
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Brett thankyou very much for those excellent pics from Oct17!

My model is now painted on the hull and what superstructure there is, looking resplendent in the China Station white with 507B upper. A very cool paint scheme, pun intended (the white hull to keep things cooler in tropical waters?) If anything, the only disappointment is my red hull came out a little darker once sealer coat on, could have been using a darker primer, oh well.

I have a further question now it's time to get into the superstructure and the scratchbuilding starts.

The back of the bridge structure: thank you for the pics of the rear of Australia's bridge. I am looking at the "second floor" - on the plan linked above it's the one with the words 'telescope' and 'FW Tank' on it. On the Australian ships it appears a single rectangular structure, viewed from the rear it is the same width as the level below it, and the level above.

On the trumpeter kit, it is split into two structures, with the rear one wider than the floor below, when viewed from behind. There is a 'gap' between the structures where you can see through if viewing from amidships. I can see this on the builder's model of HMS Cumberland, and I reckon on one amidships pic of Cornwall. It's an area that is hidden away in many pics.

My question is, did the British ships have a different bridge plan? If they are the same as the Australian ships in 1927-32, then I have some scratchbuilding to do.

Also, can someone tell me the correct names for all the deck levels, it might make questions easier.

Thankyou,

J


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:47 am 
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Three further kit questions:

Does anyone have a wood deck out for the kit yet?

Could you use the Infini-model Exeter brass pole masts on it to capture a County as built?

https://www.bnamodelworld.com/aftermark ... 524e71ee40

And, the wooden deck around B turret, was this actually wood as built, or should it be done in dark grey?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:31 am 
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Jack G wrote:

(...)

My question is, did the British ships have a different bridge plan? If they are the same as the Australian ships in 1927-32, then I have some scratchbuilding to do.

Also, can someone tell me the correct names for all the deck levels, it might make questions easier.

Thankyou,

J

Hi Jack,

I'm not really sure about what you mean, but this plan of "Kent - as fitted" is maybe helpful, although at low resolution. You may indicate by adding arrows or so what your precise question is.
Attachment:
Kent Decks and superstructure.jpg
Kent Decks and superstructure.jpg [ 39.03 KiB | Viewed 703 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:36 am 
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KENT's "as fitted" plans dated 1928 show the structure on the Lower Bridge* is not a straightforward rectangle (but with no "see-through" gap when viewed from abeam). The attached scans (poor copy of the original plans) show the plan and (in red on the second) my interpretation of the sides of the structure.
* The plans label the decks as "Upper Deck" (ie the one running full length from bow to stern), "Superstructure Deck", "Lower Bridge", Upper Bridge" and "ADO's Platform".


Attachments:
Kent LowerBridge1.jpg
Kent LowerBridge1.jpg [ 18.84 KiB | Viewed 695 times ]
Kent LowerBridge1a.jpg
Kent LowerBridge1a.jpg [ 24.57 KiB | Viewed 695 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Attachment:
IMG_4421.JPG
IMG_4421.JPG [ 213.46 KiB | Viewed 634 times ]


Thankyou Maarten and tj for the replies. I think that may be a plan of Kent post-reconstruction? It seems to have the twin 4" AAs.

I will try to link a couple of pics to show you the area I may have to modify. TJ I think it's the floorplan of the lower bridge, as per your plans. Interesting that the plan of Kent extends back in contrast to the Aussie profiles.


Last edited by Jack G on Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:26 pm 
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And here from the back of the bridge. In both pics I'm pointing at the area with my scraper.

Attachment:
IMG_4426.JPG
IMG_4426.JPG [ 201.61 KiB | Viewed 634 times ]


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:49 am 
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Unfortunately Jack, it appears you have some scratch building to do.
Your earlier question concerning B gundeck, it would have been timber decking.


Attachments:
KENT, 32.jpg
KENT, 32.jpg [ 201.82 KiB | Viewed 618 times ]
KENT, alledged around 35.jpg
KENT, alledged around 35.jpg [ 186.07 KiB | Viewed 618 times ]
KENT, early 30`s.jpg
KENT, early 30`s.jpg [ 369.84 KiB | Viewed 618 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:11 pm 
Cheers again for the pics Brett! I don't mind a bit of scratchbuilding (Maarten's work initially on this thread was excellent, how do you get the evergreen strip so precise and straight?!) I think I'll take a good look at the '32 Kent pic - great angle btw - and, the builder's model of Cumberland and the plans/pics of the rear of Australia's bridge to work out how I will do this level. For a short while last night I dug up the pics of Canberra fitting out and thought I could see a gap in this level as well - were my eyes playing tricks? I'd imagine if you were trying to tie up alongside a pier with one of these things, they'd have a junior officer out on the lower bridge wings calling the distance, and maybe having a gap in the superstructure might allow the officers to easily call between port and starboard... Nevertheless, the '32 Kent pic looks solid there.

As I go further up the bridge, more mods will need to be done. The deck plan of the lower bridge will need to be trimmed in aft as well - different shape than molded in the Trumpeter kit. It would be more simple to produce a 3d file of the early 30's bridge, however my printer doesn't seem to print to the quality I'd need.

Hope you guys were OK in all the fires up that way Brett. We usually come up your way to surf the points and backbeaches just before Easter.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:44 am 
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Hi all friend modelers,

Well, my X-mas present is already underway, in the shape of HMS Kent, Trumpeter 1:350.

I have dreamed of a model of these County-class cruisers for say the last 30+ years, and I thought that this moment would never come true...When I think of the North Sea, the Denmark Straits, the Russia convoys or the Northern Patrol, it is always the County´s what comes to my mind.

I would like to build this model in the future as an early version of this class, in the East Indies or China Stations, going for HMS Norfolk as a first choice. The colors are already clear once and forever thanks to the definitive post of Dick. BTW, Dick, yours is the kind of posts that make me come over and over again to modelwarships.com: deep knowledge and authority, with concise explanations and graphical support. It could not be better.

I thing that the reason for the traditional confusion (and I have to say that I have been part of the mistake for decades) between the China Station paint pattern (white hull & grey upperworks) and the one of East Indies Station (white hull & yellow upperworks) is simple : in b/w pictures these colors are very very difficult to distinguish from each other. Only if you know what you have to look for it is easy to see that colors are quite different in, for example, HMS Norfolk (East Indies Station):
Attachment:
HMS Norfolk asdqwe (2).jpg
HMS Norfolk asdqwe (2).jpg [ 116.09 KiB | Viewed 526 times ]

...And, for example again, in HMS Kent, (China Station):
Attachment:
HMS Kent 1931 (2).jpg
HMS Kent 1931 (2).jpg [ 44.69 KiB | Viewed 526 times ]


So, Dick, thanks a million times for your invaluable information and documents.

And now my 2 questions :
(1): Does somebody know where can I find clear plans of the London and Dorsetshire sub-classes, so that I can consider to scratch-build the bridges and the rest of the structures ?

(2): Could somebody recognize this ship of the London or Dorsetshire by name, and let me know in what colors is she painted ? It comes to me as an overall light grey, but I am not sure.
Attachment:
Unknown (1).jpg
Unknown (1).jpg [ 114.14 KiB | Viewed 526 times ]


TIA for your interest, time and help.

Best regards from the North Atlantic.

Willie.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:09 am 
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Willie wrote:
Hi all friend modelers,

Well, my X-mas present is already underway, in the shape of HMS Kent, Trumpeter 1:350.

....

And now my 2 questions :
(1): Does somebody know where can I find clear plans of the London and Dorsetshire sub-classes, so that I can consider to scratch-build the bridges and the rest of the structures ?

(2): Could somebody recognize this ship of the London or Dorsetshire by name, and let me know in what colors is she painted ? It comes to me as an overall light grey, but I am not sure.
Attachment:
Unknown (1).jpg


TIA for your interest, time and help.

Best regards from the North Atlantic.

Willie.

Hi Willie,

Welcome joining us here on this topic!

As for the hull plans of the Norfolk and London classes, you only have to turn back to page 15 of this thread: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6188&start=280 A little below the middle of the page. And see: these latter sub-classes have a very different hull structure - no bulges and vertical sidewalls! So before starting on the upperworks of the Norfolk or Dorsetshire, you'll first have to fix the hull difference. When done I can help you to plans of the different superstructures.

Regarding your second question, it is pretty hard to tell the ships apart in that period, but the colour is almost certainly light grey overall, as became the standard for all Mediterranean and Asia based ship at that time.

Maarten

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:26 pm 
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The o/h qtr image posted is rather poor resolution, but appears to be that of LONDON, or SUSSEX.
Whilst these ships were under constant changes, there are markers which can aid in identifying individual ships.
Among others one marker is the structure between the forward and central funnel.
It is difficult to see if what is seen on the aircraft barbette is actually a catapult or rails for the aircraft to be mounted.
If no catapult is fitted the date of the image is approx. 1933 early 34.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:00 am 
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Hi there Maarten, Brett and all folks,

Thanks a lot for your welcome and your invaluable posts.

Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
(...) These latter sub-classes have a very different hull structure - no bulges and vertical sidewalls! So before starting on the upperworks of the Norfolk or Dorsetshire, you'll first have to fix the hull difference. When done I can help you to plans of the different superstructures.


Yes, you are right, of course !!! I had forgotten the bulges. Thanks a lot for the input, that has surely saved me from many lost hours.
In between my kit arrives I have been revising the hull in reviews offered on line, and these bulges --along with the extra armor plating added to HMS Kent in her 1937-38 refit-- seem very difficult to delete, so I assume I will have to go for a Kent sub-class, most probably HMS Kent herself.

Brett Morrow wrote:
The o/h qtr image posted is rather poor resolution, but appears to be that of LONDON, or SUSSEX.
Whilst these ships were under constant changes, there are markers which can aid in identifying individual ships.
Among others one marker is the structure between the forward and central funnel.
It is difficult to see if what is seen on the aircraft barbette is actually a catapult or rails for the aircraft to be mounted.
If no catapult is fitted the date of the image is approx. 1933 early 34.


Brett "Hawk Eye" Morrow, thanks a lot as well. Your point is excellent. I have also noticed the bigger distance between the B turret and the bridge structure, so we can make further research now.

dick wrote:
In case it is of interest to anyone modeling the new kit of HMS Kent in 1940, she entered the Suez Canal 14 Aug 1940 on her way north to join the Mediterranean Fleet in overall light grey (507C) with clean wooden decks.


And a further question to Dick, or whoever wants to answer: After this tip, and as HMS Kent was deployed in the China Station again after her 1937-38 refit, and if she entered the Suez Canal painted in 507C, I can assume that she was also painted in 507C overall throughout her Far East commission. Am I right ???

Because this info is almost definitive for me. If HMS Kent was painted in 507C after her 1937-38 refit, she can be built almost straight out of the box, with minor changes but no mayor surgery. Details should be refined, what at this scale would be no problem to scratch-build, but the basic structures are already there to be used in full, and the beautiful Far East Stations paint pattern would match to perfection with the outline of her refitted appereance.

TIA in advance again for your interest, time and patience. I more than appreciate them.

Willie.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:25 am 
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Dear Willie,

Thank you for your kind comments.

As per my post viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6188&start=280#p760675 I am happy to confirm that according to all the documents I have seen, from the summer of 1935 the new China Station colours for cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers was overall light grey 507C. The relevant instruction was China Station Temporary Memorandum No. 567 which stipulated that the repainting was to be completed by 1st May 1935. This instruction was subsequently confirmed in China Station General Orders Chapter IV para 92a and reported back to the Admiralty in London in 1936. The painting scheme was then included in subsequent immediate pre-WW2 ship painting AFOs such as this 1937 one:
Attachment:
AFO 2796 1937 01 - Copy.jpg
AFO 2796 1937 01 - Copy.jpg [ 132.68 KiB | Viewed 394 times ]



There is plenty of photographic evidence of RN ships in Hong Kong immediately pre-WW2 to confirm this was the case. Also, given your interest in Kent, if you have not seen it yet, you might enjoy this: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... 1060009592


Best wishes


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:03 pm 
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Hi there Dick and all,

Once more :thanks: for the excellent info.
It is already clear that the kit limits the number of options to build: the bulges limit the batch to the Kent sub-class, and the armor plating reduces the timing as to after may 1938 and before september 1941. Bulges and armor plating would be very difficult to delete in the model, so, what I could build with minimal changes would be this :
Attachment:
HMS Kent Hong Kong (b).jpg
HMS Kent Hong Kong (b).jpg [ 137.77 KiB | Viewed 323 times ]

Still a peace time atractive version, and virtually Trumpeter´s kit in full: new bridge, new AA guns, new fire directors, lattice structure aft, cranes and catapult, but still with her original masts, very easy to build, and everything in clearly 507C.

dick wrote:
Also, given your interest in Kent, if you have not seen it yet, you might enjoy this: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... 1060009592

No, I had never seen it before, I have really enjoyed it, andI find it full of superb information. I have even discovered something that puzzles me:
Attachment:
HMS Kent details (5).JPG
HMS Kent details (5).JPG [ 36.82 KiB | Viewed 323 times ]

Should the teak planking not extend to the forecastle ??? Because the movie does not lie: metal forecastle deck...

When was this forecastle modified to teak planking instead of steel ???

Once more TIA, and very best wishes from the North Atlantic,

Willie.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:56 pm 
Willie, that's a great question, and one I was going to ask as well.

Were the ships completed with Teak all the way to the bow? And when was it replaced/plated over?



*Also, if anyone wants to modify the hull to make a non-bulged County, good luck! Maybe it would be possible to infill the trapezoidal shape of the hull with straight outriggers, then infill this with a foam you could sand back. Once done, all the detail has to be added. After what I just went through removing the armoured belt, I won't be the first to try the straight hull!


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