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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:25 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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Hi,

Unfortunately HMS Norfolk is very difficult. There are not enough good quality photographs of her, and in discussion with dick, elcejay, cag and medway08 it was pointed out by dick that we can see enough to acknowledge that the same basic scheme was on the ship for a rather long time but that there are differences in shape and placement of some panels of camouflage. Dick has identified at least 3 basic phases of evolution but there isn't enough information to accurately map it.

We have an incomplete written list of paints used at one particular point in time in the middle of this long period, as well as some colour footage from several months later of only the port side which does not quite reconcile intuitively with the written account. Due to the confirmed but incomplete changes to the camouflage design, a change in one or more paint colours cannot be ruled out either.

We could possibly counsel on which paints we'd use to either resemble some photographs, and/or the written account or the colour footage, but not all at the same time and even then it would come with a big government health warning. I don't think any of the aforementioned, including myself, would be so bold as to state that we have a reasonably robust argument in favour of any particular camouflage design for HMS Norfolk during her period of having a disruptive pattern camouflage scheme. It's just too easy to pick holes in any given suggestion such that a fair degree of doubt remains.

As always, it seems easier to say what it isn't than what it is.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 am 
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Rambousek wrote:
Greetings to all County-class cruiser fans! I received the HMS Norfolk 1942 (1/700 Aoshima) kit from the Hobby Search store just before the end of 2019...


Let's be fair! This is the first mainstream kit of any of the later Counties coming to us. For decades it was only the Airfix Suffolk all we had resembling any County. Only just a few month since Trumpeter treated us on the Cornwall and recently the Kent. And to be honest, the amount (and quality) of publications on the Counties has been very low so far, except for the generic pubs from Raven and Roberts.

Being the most important heavy cruiser type of the RN during the war, I would think more lavish covering would be more than justified. Anatomy of the Ship for instance? And a complete and accurate covering of ALL the paint schemes, quite a few to be exact? So the authors of such quality publications are more than welcome!

In the meantime we modelers will have to do with fragmentary information, on any of those ships in whatever period or paint scheme.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Rambousek:

Check out this thread for photos and discussion of the camouflage of HMS Norfolk in the timeframe you are interested in: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=214530

Enjoy!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:12 am 
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Since it's discussed in two places simultaneously, I thought I'd post the essential bits of my response in the CASF County Class thread here too. I'd hate for anyone to believe the matter is settled because I don't believe it is.

Quote:
Unfortunately HMS Norfolk is very difficult. There are not enough good quality photographs of her, and in discussion with dick, elcejay, cag and medway08 it was pointed out by dick that we can see enough to acknowledge that the same basic scheme was on the ship for a rather long time but that there are differences in shape and placement of some panels of camouflage. Dick has identified at least 3 basic phases of evolution but there isn't enough information to accurately map it.

We have an incomplete written list of paints used at one particular point in time in the middle of this long period, as well as some colour footage from several months later of only the port side which does not quite reconcile intuitively with the written account. Due to the confirmed but incomplete changes to the camouflage design, a change in one or more paint colours cannot be ruled out either.

We could possibly counsel on which paints we'd use to either resemble some photographs, and/or the written account or the colour footage, but not all at the same time and even then it would come with a big government health warning. I don't think any of the aforementioned, including myself, would be so bold as to state that we have a reasonably robust argument in favour of any particular camouflage design for HMS Norfolk during her period of having a disruptive pattern camouflage scheme. It's just too easy to pick holes in any given suggestion such that a fair degree of doubt remains.

As always, it seems easier to say what it isn't than what it is.



Of course this doesn't mean you all can't build models, but as is often the way of things the kit manufacturers have chosen a subject for which the camouflage scheme is only partially documented and, as far as we can tell, changed over a fairly long period of time.

This isn't like HMS Prince of Wales where the scheme was worn for around 5 months, is very well photographed in B&W, has a good square-on colour capture on cine too and the only panel which doesn't look the same in all sources is fully explained by the presence of a photograph showing matelots on ropes with paint brushes in hand half-way through painting it darker. Likewise it's not like HMS Rodney and Nelson for which we can more or less track the changes to the camouflage pattern through time within certain date-tolerances as both are rather well photographed.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:32 am 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Being the most important heavy cruiser type of the RN during the war, I would think more lavish covering would be more than justified. Anatomy of the Ship for instance? And a complete and accurate covering of ALL the paint schemes, quite a few to be exact? So the authors of such quality publications are more than welcome!


The kind of author who claimed to present a complete and accurate covering of all the paint schemes is probably the absolute last person who should be trusted when it comes to some of the County class :no_2:

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:16 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Being the most important heavy cruiser type of the RN during the war, I would think more lavish covering would be more than justified. Anatomy of the Ship for instance? And a complete and accurate covering of ALL the paint schemes, quite a few to be exact? So the authors of such quality publications are more than welcome!


The kind of author who claimed to present a complete and accurate covering of all the paint schemes is probably the absolute last person who should be trusted when it comes to some of the County class :no_2:

:heh: You have a point James!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:33 pm 
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I would like to thank you all for participating in this conversation and for great information as well.


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 Post subject: 1/350 HMS Cornwall
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:19 am 
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The correct color scheme for the Cornwall in 1942, Indian Ocean ???? Were the main decks left Wooden color or painted ??


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 Post subject: Re: 1/350 HMS Cornwall
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:15 am 
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Location: Bristol
Hello Mike
I asked the same question when scratchbuilding my 1/200 Cornwall. Apparently the decks were left unpainted.
Len


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 Post subject: Re: 1/350 HMS Cornwall
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:07 pm 
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Cornwall`s deck colour has been discussed in brief within the County class thread.
Whilst I have seen no official documentation pertaining to any actual colour applied, it is highly likely her decks were painted a dark deck grey or equivalent.
Most, if not all decks of ships operating within the Pacific/Indian ocean theatre were painted, until late towards wars end.
It had been highlighted by previous hard lessons learned that unpainted raw decking was a flyboys dream target.
The famous image floating around of Cornwall sinking, shows a very dark qtrdeck, given the discrepancies exhibited by many poor images one could be forgiven for interpreting this as a dark applied colour.


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
moved TO the County Class thread


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:33 am 
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Can anyone tell me what the rotating catapult support structure (especially the top) looked like after the aircraft equipment was removed?
Thank You
Tom


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:05 am 
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Hi Tom,

Maybe these drawings help?
Attachment:
p3 left reduced.jpg
p3 left reduced.jpg [ 299.73 KiB | Viewed 443 times ]
Attachment:
p3 right reduced.jpg
p3 right reduced.jpg [ 291.18 KiB | Viewed 443 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:03 am 
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Thanks, Maarten,
I was trying to visualise it the top area would have steel plates welded over any openings left after the catapult and gubbins were removed or if there was just a hole plated over in the middle where the turntable was to deal with.
Tom


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:05 am 
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Not quite sure what you are getting at but when the catapult was removed other things went too and the area was reused in various ways on the different ships. This is Devonshire:
Attachment:
zcatapult removed.jpg
zcatapult removed.jpg [ 130.3 KiB | Viewed 414 times ]


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:20 am 
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Thanks Dick,
I suppose it varied from ship to ship.
Tom


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:26 pm 
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Hi Dick
A very interesting photo of the back end of Devonshire after her conversion/AA upgrade that I have never seen before (and I have looked high and low) do you know where I can get a high res copy of the rest of the photo ?
All I have been of her are the much copied port bow view of her coming alone side for a RAS and a very small overhead view

Graham
(Sunny Rockingham WA The unburn part of Aust :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:45 pm 
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Dick`s photo is of Devonshire taken May 46 in Malta.
There is also an image of her floating around taken in Sydney slightly earlier, which shows her central funnel a darker colour.
That particular image has been incorrectly identified as Shropshire and all the sheep have followed the mis-caption.


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DEVONSHIRE, 05.46.jpg
DEVONSHIRE, 05.46.jpg [ 228.37 KiB | Viewed 369 times ]
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:43 am 
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bismarck builder wrote:
Dan
Did you know that the only things that did not change position on any countie class were the main turrets and the fuunnels ( london not inc )
cheere
gary r uk

Well, even that is not quite true. I refer to Raven and Roberts, and I have ascertained it for myself too:

In the London and Norfolk classes the funnels were grouped closer together then in the Kents (spacing between them decreased by 4 feet), and the rear turrets were also moved aft.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:08 am 
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Graham, See my pm.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:59 am 
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Hi Dick I have sent you PM

Thanks Brett
I do have a copy of that photo that I found a little while ago, Over the years I have looked at most of the Australian sites RAN Historical, Kookaburras Flicker stuff the VIC library Green collection and hadn't notice any thing might try again with a key word search

Thanks Graham


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