The Ship Model Forum

Hi all,

I'm trying to research HMS Sheffield's AA outfit at the end of 43 - and hope some of the experts would be kind enough to offer an opinion.
All the recognised sources quote 14 20mm single Oerlikons at that time. In all my searching, the only photo I've found which I think matches the timeframe is this one:

(The submarine alongside is HMS Stonehenge, commissioned June 43, active off Sumatra early Feb 44 and lost March 44 which I think places this photo as late 43 - assuming it took a month or so for a submarine ot get from Scapa to the Eastern Fleet and into action.)

The original photo (from an eBay CD of images taken by a crew member) is ID'd as Sheffield, and looking at the bow knuckle and stern HACS, I think it can only be Sheffield or Glasgow. So I'm going with the ID. On the original I can see a total of 9 20 mm mounts - circled - plus from other shots I can ID another 4:

My questions are,
Where is 20mm mount 14? - since there is only one mount missing, I'd expect it to be on the centreline. The only other images I've seen of Sheffield, supposedly in this timeframe are in the Battle of North Cape section of the "Royal Navy at War - War In The Frozen North" DVD in which it appears the director position between the bridge and B Turret may have an Oerlikon mounted.

Secondly, the images above seem to show a differetn pattern for the camouflage to that shown in Alan Raven's camouflage books with the two darker colours being reversed, can anyone suggest whether this is an effect of the film or that the design did actually change.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Have you checked the following 3 key references:

British Cruisers of WWII by Raven & Roberts
Ensign 5 Town Class Cruisers by Raven & Roberts
HMS Sheffield by Roland Bassett?

The 2nd states for Sheffield:
Sept 1941 6 x Single 20mm added
Machine guns removed
July 1942 3 x Single 20mm added
June 1943 5 x Single 20mm added
Thus giving you your 14 total, but sadly it doesn't state the positions.

If you haven't checked the other sources I can do for you tomorrow?

I just had a very quick look in my warship photograph database for Sheffield, but I seem to have mainly pre-war, 1940-1942, and 1944-postwar photos of her instead of the late-1943 ones you need.
Hopefully Alan will let you know the 20mm locations.
Regards
LB

Hi Laurence,

I've checked all of those, plus a few others, but as you say there doesn't seem to be anything much between 42 and 44. I know you've done more than a little reasearch from the primary sources, can you give me any pointers to the docs that might hold the answers?

ta,

A

I believe that the two photos were taken at different dates in 1943. The first one appears to have been taken around mid year and the second somwhat earlier in the same year.. The camouflage had definately changed somewhat by July 43. Believe that the 14th 20mm may have been fitted on roof of 'A' turret. The item on the bridge face is the barrage director fitted with type 283 radar.

Thanks Alan,

You are correct, the two photos were taken at different times - the mounts on the flight/catapult deck are not present in the second photo.
Here is a close up of the bridge A& B turret, its a bad angle, but could that be something on B?



I think it is too promenent to be the barrage director and too high to be the paravanes stored on the bulkhead.

thanks,

A

Ar will tell you about some mythical 'Armament returns' forms held at Priddy's Hard, Gosport, Hampshire aka now the Explosion Museum which were official documents outlining when new AA weapons were issued and returned to ships during the war I believe. He can say more as I'm just going on what he's told me and I never have located them.

In terms of the archival record, it is hard to ascertain a cruisers AA fit from mere Admiralty documentation.
You best bet is to examine the clear wartime photographs in the IWM
The first port of call would be to book an appointment to visit the photographic section of the IWM, Lambeth, London.
It is in a small annex (St Mary's) round the back of the main museum and you can only take in with you paper and pencil after putting your bits n bobs into a locker.

Once there you can use their computer system and start to go through the Admiralty MoD collection of photographs they have of Sheffield.
Also ask to see any which are stored in back rooms uncatalogued in envelopes.
Additionally if your a good researcher, and very methodical, you will write a list of key search terms which might reveal further wartime photos of Sheffield in the IWM, where she hasn't been identified.
By this I mean you write down a list of key ports she was based in; convoys she escorted, or other ships she operated closely with at the time period your interested in. This will perhaps lead you to black box folders of photographs previous researchers haven't bothered checking for Sheffield photographs.

Secondly you could check if there is a HMS Sheffield Association and ask some 'old hands' or family members if they have any photos of Sheffield for late-1943. Often they are only too happy to help as long as you send them photos of a completed model after the build. The Navy News can be helpful for finding old ships associations.

Thirdly, you can try and locate any Coastal Command, RAF etc aerial photographs of her. I am not sure where these are as it is something for me to chase up in years to come.

Fourthly, go through any action reports, damage reports, ships log or any other documents for late-1943 for Sheffield in the PRO, and there might be a photograph or details in text form suggesting where the 20mm were installed, but I feel this is a long shot.

Your best bet is photographs!
I have around 40-odd on the pc for her, but sadly nothing close to your desired time period
LB

You are looking a periscope fitted to 'B' turret. Visible in both photos.

Laurence,
Thanks very much for the very comprehensive answer, looks like I'll be taking a trip to Lambeth - also thanks for saving me a (probably) wasted trip to Portsmouth which had been my plan.

Alan,
Thanks for the answer, I can see that periscope now. Do you have a source or eveidence for the fitting on A Turret? I'm planning to visit the IWM, anything to focus my search would obviously be a big help.


thanks again,
Andrew

I found the July 43 photo which shows the 20mm on roof of 'B' turret.
When/if you go looking for photos at the IWM, be aware that the staff are morons, in that they no nothing about ships.
Look for photos that show disruptive camouflage and TWO yards on the mainmast. The lower yard was fitted during the febuary/june 43 weather damage repairs, to carry type 91 or type 1V radar intercept and jamming aerials. See your first photo for reference.

THanks again, I see what you mean by the second Yard.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Andrew

What an elegant ship....

_________________
"A ship is always referred to as she because it costs so much to keep one in paint and powder” - Chester W. Nimitz

In the yard:

Slip 1 - IJN Yahagi (1/350) - building
Slip 2 - IJN Amagi (Battle cruiser) (1/700) - building

This link was originally posted on the Bismarck site, it is a less than elegant view of HMS Edinburgh ;


http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/MoreImages7/Edinburgh1.jpg

Hi Guys, Can anybody help:- I am currently constructing 2 models of HMS Manchester. All the photos I have of her are Far East colours (White and Buff), what looks like Dark Grey (Atlantic Fleet?) and a slightly lighter tone colour, which I think may be "Mountbattan Pink". As you all know its notorious to try and predict colours from black and white photos. As I am making two models, one will be Far East, but does anybody know the colour at the time of her loss in 1942. The Raven and Roberts book is not a lot of use as it does not list her in the colour profiles.

Thanx!

_________________
Ron (where age and treachery beats youth and skill)

Raven lists her as being in Mountbatten Pink in 1942. That tallies with photos.

Hey guys, could anyone shed some light on what colors were used by the RN postwar? I'm currently working on paintings of these 2 ships and would like the colors to be as accurate as possible. I'm guessing light gray and deck gray/natural wood but can't find out for sure.

HMS Belfast off Korea


HMS Cardigan Bay off Korea


In the distant future I'd like to model Belfast from that time period as well and am coming up short of info from the Korean War era. Any and all help is appreciated as always.

Thanks,
-Mike

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984

Would anyone know what the aircraft code for one of the Walrus aircraft carried by HMS Sheffield would be for the late 1942 time period? Not after the serial number but rather whether the aircraft would carry an identifying letter, what colour and where on the airframe.

thanks

Steve

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model of this ship and want to represent it while refueling at dock.

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Jorge

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Gus
Semper Fi

The last moments of HMS Gloucester off Crete 22nd May 1941...

At anchor in Plymouth Sound 1939.

Thank you Laurence!





Bob Pink.