The Ship Model Forum

Hello at all. Does anyone know id San Francisco's camo scheme in May of 1942 was the same or different as her scheme during her night battle at Guadacanal? I just picked up the 1/350 Trumpeter kit and would like to finish her in her in her appearance while under command of then Capt Callaghan.

Thanks in advance.

Another repost of something I put on the SN site reference what can be built from the new San Fran kits. Some repetition from previous posts.

"There were enough differences in these ships that, once you know what to look for, you can easily tell one from another. Differences were found in the turret shapes, gun types, bridge configs, searchlight towers, 5" gun arrangements, and later, the placement of the medium and light AA guns.

Guns: The originally designed turret was the flat-faced type found in the San Fran, Tuscaloosa, Quincy and Vincennes. They had a lighter gun, as well. The New Orleans, Astoria, and Minneapolis were originally ordered as sisterships to the Portland and Indianapolis. But, being built by Navy Yards, they could be switched to the later design after the contract was issued, without adding massively to the cost. However, the guns and some of the gun-support structures had already been started. Therefore, the turret was redesigned to take the older guns. That led to New Orleans, Astoria, and Minnie having the curved-faced turrets with larger openings in the turret face to allow the larger (external diameter) guns. Quincy and Vincennes had turret 1 moved 8' further aft to shorten the main armor belt, saving weight.

Bridge: New Orleans, Astoria, Minnie, Tuscaloosa and San Fran all completed with essentially the same bridge. The comm-bridge level was 1 1/2 levels in height to allow the conning tower to be high enough to see over turret 2. Originally the comm-bridge was open in all 5. Tuscaloosa was first to plate-in the comm bridge, which was done at the original level, causing the extra 1/2 level to be between the top of the windows and the nav-bridge deck, and blocking the view forward (turret 2 in the way). Astoria, Minnie, and San Fran had a new deck installed 1/2 level above the original comm-bridge deck, and the bridges were plated in at that level. That put the new windows immediately below the nav-bridge deck. New Orleans never plated that bridge level in, and eventually raised the flag-bags up to the nav-bridge level. Quincy and Vincennes had the comm-bridge wings trimmed way back (in the design stage) to save weight. This required some additional supports to hold up the nav-bridge. They always had the flag-bags at the nav-bridge level.

Searchlight towers: Between the stacks, all 7 ships had a large intake vent. On New Orleans, Astoria, Minnie, and San Fran, the searchlight tower overhung the vent, forward and aft, and rested on the main deck. On Tuscaloosa, Quincy, and Vincennes, the tower was narrower (fore and aft), resting entirely on the top of the vent.

5" guns: All 7 ships had 8 5" mounts, with the forward 2 (abeam the bridge structures) raised one level above the main deck. The remaining 6 guns were immediately aft on the main deck. These 6 guns varried slightly in arrangement from one ship to another. New Orleans, Astoria, Minnie, and San Fran all had the same arrangement with the middle gun on each side inset somewhat closer to the centerline than the other 4 guns. Quincy and Vincennes were similar, but the middle guns were not inset as far as on the other 4 ships. Tuscaloosa was unique in having the aftermost gun on each side as the inset one, and the middle gun even with the forward one.

Medium/light AA: As built, the ships carried 8 .50's. In 1940/41, (usually at the same time the 5" guns received splinter-shields) tubs were added for the 1.1" guns. Some ships got the 1.1's initially, but some temporarily carried 3". The ships were in this state when the camo paint started being applied. Late in '41 through the first half of '42, the ships went into the yards and received 20MM guns. (Often, the radar was added during this refit) Therefore, you find photos of Tuscaloosa and Quincy wearing MS-12R, but still lacking the 20MM. The 20MM arrangements varied, depending on whether the ships refitted in Atlantic coast or Pacific coast yards, and the available gun locations due to bridge configs, etc. On Quincy and Vincennes, the 1.1 tubs on the bridge structure were slightly further forward due to the lack of comm-bridge wings, which resulted in differing support structures for the tubs.

What you can convert the San Fran kit to depends on the balancing act between scratch-building the differences, and living with the inaccuracies. That is a choice only you can make. Of course, this only covers the differences through 1942. Wartime modernizaton led to a further round of differences among the 4 surviving ships. "

Many thanks for this excellent expose. Could you point me to a good drawing reference for the ships in “original” configuration (30-ies)? Preferably Astoria, but any other would do. I do have Profile Morskie “Astoria”, but it is 42 configuration and I’m also a bit skeptical about their drawings.

Photographs in 1942 show San Francisco in Navy Blue. I painted the hull and superstructure vertical surfaces of my Trumpy model with Model Master Navy Blue Acrylic. The decks were painted with Model Master Deck Blue Acrylic. Hope this helps.

Helps quite a bit, Chief. And thanks for clearing up my next question before I ever got to it. SF on the Trumpeter box looks nice and all, but the scheme they used for their presentation looked off as compared to B & W's from the timeframe in question. Navy Blue it is.

_________________
Alex
SF, CA

"Or maybe he'd get really lucky and hit an officer on the head."

J. Hornfischer describing a pilot's attack on an enemy cruiser with depth charges at Battle Off Samar - Last Stand Of The Tin Can Sailors

Same scheme CA-38 May 1942 vs. Nov 1942..........5-N vertical, 20-B decks. The official designation changed from MS-11 to MS-21, but 5-N had replaced 5-S by May 1942, so it was the same colors.

Jerry Phillips

Outside of the usual sources, such as Floating Drydock, etc, I don't know where to find detailed plans. Even then, I don't know of any drawings specifically of the commissioning rig, since it was relatively short-lived. As-commissioned photos can be found for all of the first 5 (without the plated-in comm-bridge) at Navsource. Such photos can also be found in Chuck Hansen's San Fran monograph and in the 3 New Orleans class books from Classic Warships.

Comparing the Hobby Search Japan photo of the kit contents and scan of the assembly instructions for the 1/700 Trumpeter/Pit Road Astoria to the New Orleans kit shows the addition of two new sprues "H" & "J" and deletion of "D". The number of parts on "J" indicates two ships of the class are covered by these sprues (two slightly different hanger boat decks for example). Both style of the 8" turrets are again included with the kit. Can someone identify which ship has the same bridge structure (which differs from the New Orleans kit) as the Astoria?

In mid-1942, San Francisco, Astoria, and Minneapolis were all essentially the same. San Fran was the most different, having the flat-faced turrets with the newer, lighter guns. Astoria and Minnie had the curved-faced turrets with the older, heavier guns. Superstructure wise, though, the differences between the three were fairly minor.

Hey guys-
I'm sure lots of you have got your Trumpeter San Francisco and I'm thinking of doing the same. The only thing that's holding me back is the all-blue paint scheme (boring!).
Are there any other options without having to do major surgery on the kit?
Thanks in advance....

_________________
Regards-Frank O'Neill
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

You could back date her to a pre-war Standard Gray scheme. Probably wouldn't be too difficult...

Otherwise, you'd either have to do major surgery on the bridge or wait for the 1944 version, when she wore a dazzle scheme, to be released.

Pre-War


Dazzle

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Did the New Orleans have 40mm quads at the battle of Tassafaronga? This picture of her in November of 42 shows a good shot of her stern and those look a lot more like quad 40's than 1.1's in those stern tubs. Being that she got a visit to Pearl in September could it be possible that they fitted 2 quads to her? Is this common knowledge and I have just missed it somewhere before?

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/032/0403203.jpg
Also of note is the absence of depth charge racks which she had at the battle of the Coral Sea.

Thanks
Matt

_________________
In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

Both New Orleans and Minneapolis received quad 40MM on the fantail while at Pearl, where they had escorted Saratoga for torpedo damage repairs (and her own quad 40MM). They retained the 1.1's forward, since the installation of quad 40's there entailed major structural alteration. The tubs were a bit smaller than those installed later (notice they don't overhang the sides). After Tassafaronga, New Orleans had initial repairs at Sydney, replacing Portland in the drydock there. She then proceeded to Bremerton for permanent repairs and modernization. She retained the smaller stern 40MM tubs to the end, and they are one of the recognition points for the ship. Minneapolis had initial repairs at Esprito Santo, and permanent hull (only) repairs at Pearl. (The West Coast drydocks were full of other repairs from the Guadalcanal campaign.) While there, her 40MM were offloaded for installation on other "quick turn-arounds". Her powerplant repairs, final hull fittings (such as anchors), and modernization were done at Mare Island, after she had sailed to Bremerton to donate #1 turret to New Orleans, since the NO boat was otherwise finished. At Mare Island, Minnie also had her stern tubs removed and replaced with the then-standard sized tubs, and received a new turret 1.

Dick,

Thanks, this was very interesting. I have a question however; Do you know if the replacement number 1 turret for the Minneapolis at MINY was a "reserve" turret or did the Navy build an all new one (except for the guns ... I'm sure they had spares of those) just for her?

By the way, I was at NARA last week and I'm still sorting through the image scans I made and I will try to send a few your way and/or post next week (Mothers Day and all has this weekend booked).

Rick

Hi Rick,

If there had been one in reserve, they could have just installed it in New Orleans. It had to be built from scratch, and wasn't ready when the rest of her repairs were complete. However, since Minneapolis had more repair stops and delays, it made more sense to make her wait for the turret and get New Orleans back into the war. The turrets on the first three of the New Orleans class had been specially (re)designed to accept the older guns and cradles from the Portland design, the original planned design for CA's 32-36. It was not intended for any further ships to receive that turret.

Dick

Dick,

I kind of figured that a new turret needed to be built. But, since the New Orleans went to the Puget Sound NY and Minny to Mare Island NY (after "dropping" off her turret), I was uncertain if maybe a spare turret was kept at MINY and it was too dificult to ship the turret to PSNY. In a sense, MINY was the major yard on the West Coast ... at least for some ship classes. Thanks.

Rick,

Astoria was built at Puget Sound NY, New Orleans at NYNY, and Minneapolis at Philly. If a spare for this earlier type of turret was available on the West Coast, Bremerton would have been the more likely location. MINY built San Fran, but she had the later flat-faced turrets. Unlike DD guns, the trunks on the CA turrets were of different lengths to reach the magazines and were integral to the turret. No two turrets were on the same level until Wichita. They would probably have had to build a spare for each location - a lot of work for a "what-if", especially with the early '30's budgets. (Actually, one oddity is that the "earlier" turrets on the first three ships, by hull number, were designed after the "later" turrets on the other 4. CA-37 was the actual prototype, and CA's 32, 34, & 36 were reordered to the design. The original CA-37 turret had to be adapted to take the Portland type guns, which were already being constructed. Budgets were so tight that they wouldn't spring the money for the improved guns.)

In researching USS Tuscaloosa I found a set of construction drawings for the ship on the New York Shipbuilding Company archives website. The version on line are pockets plans carried by foremen. Since I plan on modifying Trumpeter's 1/350 San Francisco to a pre-war Tuscaloosa, these are perfect. But they should help with the other ships, know that there are differences between the sisters.http://www.geocities.com/usstuscaloosa/blueprints.htm

_________________
Charles Landrum
USNA 1983
Norfolk, Virginia

I'm looking over the Trumpy 700th NO boat, and question the porthole arrangement. By 42 many, including lower were plated over. However the upper row are absolutely parallel to waterline. I've only seen drawings in Morskie & YMM San Fran that show them with a shear that roughly follows top deck(YMM kit portrays them that way). Aside from whether more should be plated over in 42, are they supposed to be parallel to waterline?

The portholes were neither parallel to the waterline nor following the sheerline. They were somewhere in between. The Trumpy kit takes them all the way to the anchors (almost), as in peace time. By the time the US entered the war, the forward ones had been filled in back to about turret 1. The exact stopping place varied from ship to ship, and over time. If you fill in the forward ones, the rest should be close enough to the proper height that very few would see they were off, if anyone noticed at all.