The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:49 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 633 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:31 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Hi all,
It's me again with two questions...

1. In late 1939, would San Francisco been equipped with 50 cal machine guns on either or both of the forward and aft superstructures?

2. In late 1939, would San Francisco have paravanes?

Thanks,
Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:19 am
Posts: 174
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Hi Chuck,

According to Chuck Hansen's book on the San Francisco she carried the 50cals from 1934 until early 1942. Four each on the forward and aft machine gun platforms, two on each side of the ship. The ship carried 2 sets of paravanes from the time of commissioning until decommissioning.

Good modeling,

_________________
Bruce
OSC USN-Ret
Image

Currently on the building ways:
1/144 USS Stevens DD-479
1/144 USS Cook Inlet AVP-36
1/350 USS Hughes DD-410
1/144 USS Preble DDG-46


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:38 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Hi Bruce,
I did notice the machine guns in George Richardson's 1935 drawings. And based upon your reply I think it is safe to assume they were in the same locations in 1939.
I had thought USSSF had only two paravanes, not four. So I will have to think a bit about where they would have been stored.
Anyway, thank you for this very helpful information.
Regards,
Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:19 am
Posts: 174
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Chuck,
One set of the paravanes was located forward on the 01 level deckhouse on either side of mount 82. The other pair were located aft on the 01 on either side of the forward superstructure as well. I have some pictures I can dig up if you need them.

Best

_________________
Bruce
OSC USN-Ret
Image

Currently on the building ways:
1/144 USS Stevens DD-479
1/144 USS Cook Inlet AVP-36
1/350 USS Hughes DD-410
1/144 USS Preble DDG-46


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:46 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Doh,
Yes, now I see where they were located.

Thanks again,
Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:38 pm
Posts: 24
Finished work on a weathering and color study. I posted about the weathering in 'Tips and Tricks', but had a question specific to -38 in '42 post battle.

I used WEM Navy Blue N-5 as the base and then lightened it for my purposes.

Is it me, or does the WEM N-5 not look like a good match compared to color photos of the period, or parts of -38? I understand the -38 in '42 could have been in S-5, but no one seems to know for sure and even if it was, the colors were very similar (outside of how they weathered - and why the Navy changes to N-5).

Thoughts?


Attachments:
Picture2.png
Picture2.png [ 398.48 KiB | Viewed 1055 times ]
0403886.jpg
0403886.jpg [ 176.24 KiB | Viewed 1051 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
I have to ask where you found these images of ship structure and what ship are they from? If they were posted earlier, I missed them. I have to wonder, does that "-38" refer to USS SAN FRANCISCO? When were these parts removed?? Whether these parts are painted in 5-S, 5-N, or even 5-H is depended on when they were removed. Very few USN ships were painted in 5-S after about the Spring of 1942, unless the ship was too busy for a complete repaint job.

As to the apparent difference between 5-N out of the can and what it looks like in photos, color or B&W, there are several factors to consider.

- All paint will look different outdoors in natural light. And even appear different under different lighting conditions; bright sunny day or overcast cloudy day.

- The camera settings. filters used, processing of the film or age/preservation of the film/print/transparency, etc will alter how the image looks color or otherwise.

- The WWII 5-N paint was notorious for fading in the bright South Pacific sun. Also, the exposure to salt water left a residue on all surfaces, particularly the hull.

- Distance from the camera that an image is taken.

- Generally speaking, the "true color" of a WWII camo paint will appear to be darker on a model than on a full size subject.

Here are a sample of images scanned from original transparencies at the US National Archives (NARA). All of these subjects were painted in Ms 21 with 5-N paint.

Image

Image

Image

This image of USS St LOUIS (CL-49) taken on 5 July 1943, is really an interesting study. Note that parts of her superstructure looking darker than the hull. Also, note that the hull of the oiler in the foreground left is a darker 5-N than St LOUIS. Further, you can see where at some point her hull has been touched-up painted. You can see the salt residue along her hull, particularly along the waterline.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:38 pm
Posts: 24
Rick E Davis wrote:
I have to ask where you found these images of ship structure and what ship are they from? If they were posted earlier, I missed them. I have to wonder, does that "-38" refer to USS SAN FRANCISCO? When were these parts removed?? Whether these parts are painted in 5-S, 5-N, or even 5-H is depended on when they were removed. Very few USN ships were painted in 5-S after about the Spring of 1942, unless the ship was too busy for a complete repaint job.


Rick - thank you so much. That was really helpful information, especially the nuances of coloring in different environments. I assume I could also add, that the myriad shipyards (domestic and abroad) that painted USN ships during WWII all probably used different color mixes, different suppliers and different application techniques at different levels of workmanship resulting in a fleet that while might have been in the same measure, might actually look different side-by-side. This helps a lot, as I think I can give myself some wiggle room in paint match.

"-38" indeed refers to the San Francisco. I'm actually modeling her as she is seen upon return following the Battle of Guadalcanal. So either 04 DEC 42 when she returned to Pearl or 11-14 DEC 42 when she had to stand off San Francisco while berth space was made available. The picture behind the model is off San Francisco(fittingly).

Lastly, the parts are actually from the San Francisco following the battle. The bridge wings are in the memorial at Golden Gate National Recreation Area and the others were put in storage in their original condition, which is really helpful (especially in seeing how the yellow primer shows through the faded blue). I wish they had done that to more ship of the war.

They can be found here, at the bottom of the page:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/038/04038.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
Actually until mid-war, the USN manufactured the paint and distributed the two component paint to USN yards and private yards. With increased need for paint as more ships were added to the Fleet, private paint manufacturers were provided the formula to make the two components of paint.

The family of USN camouflage paint, 5-H, 5-O, 5-N, 5-S, etc, was shipped to application sites as "White" paint with all the properties desired in a good marine paint, and "blue tinting" paste. The ratio of tinting mixed in to the white paint determined the shade of the final paint... http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/index.html ... It was possible that whoever mixed the paint, could loose count of how much tinting he was using, but most times the paint was mixed and applied at a yard or an advance base. Early in the war, it was directed that ships were not allowed to carry large quantities of paint after it was realized how much of a fire hazard it was in combat. Ship crews could apply the paint, but it was supplied at a base or yard for that purpose and likely was delivered to them pre-mixed in smaller containers than large barrels.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:57 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Hi gents,

Two more questions regarding USS San Francisco, please:

Were floater nets and baskets ever in use, and if so what time frame?

My reference photos show four accommodation ladders--two port and two starboard--from 1935 through the end of the war. Any reason to think this might not be the case in 1939?

Thanks,
Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:19 am
Posts: 174
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Chuck she did carry them but I don't believe they were installed until after the December 42 yard period.

The number of accommodation ladders probably didn't change through the life of the ship.

_________________
Bruce
OSC USN-Ret
Image

Currently on the building ways:
1/144 USS Stevens DD-479
1/144 USS Cook Inlet AVP-36
1/350 USS Hughes DD-410
1/144 USS Preble DDG-46


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:34 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Sounds good.
Thanks for the quick reply.

Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
Floater Nets had a slow introduction and initially were "bundled" and not put in baskets. It is really hard to spot in photos unless they are close-ups, but the nets would be bundled and tied to the inside of deck edge railing for deployment if needed. Sometimes the nets were wrapped in canvas. But, combat experienced showed that the net bundles would come loose and cause a big mess on the deck making movement difficult. Baskets were introduced as best I can tell in mid-1942, at least on East Coast built destroyers in and around NYNY. There were complaints about the baskets being mounted TOO HIGH up in the superstructure and the use of baskets was suspended for awhile. I have photos of several destroyers completed in late 1942 with as many as THIRTEEN float rafts. By early 1943, floater baskets became common.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:48 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Thanks for this extra information, Rick. I'm sure everyone appreciates it.
Do you think it is safe to assume, then, that neither the nets or the baskets would have been aboard San Francisco in 1939?

Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1110
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
The ships may not have carried four side ladders. They could be rigged fore and aft on either port or starboard side. It would be unusual to rig them on both port and starboard at the same time.

Looking through the original Cleveland plans I can find stowage for only two side ladders, ladder platforms, booms, etc. On the CLGs we had only two side ladders. We typically rigged the ladders on one side and rigged the boat booms on the other. Boats tied to the booms and the boom rigging would obstruct passage to the side ladders.

You may find photos of a particular ship with ladders rigged on both port and starboard sides, but were the photos taken at the same time?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:47 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Interesting. Most of the photos I have seen are undated. But none of them were taken at the same time.

Thanks for the heads up,
Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:22 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Well, I hate to be "hogging" this thread, but now I'm looking at USS San Francisco's boat stacks...
I have a drawing which shows a boat stack with a Pearl Harbor-vintage captain's gig on top, in 1935. By 1942 apparently they were all open boats. Does anyone have an idea of what was in place in 1939?

Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:19 am
Posts: 174
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Chuck according to Hansen's book, in 1938 she carried the following:

2 - 40ft launches
2 - 36ft launches
1 - 30ft launch
2 - 26ft motor whaleboats
2- 12ft punts

The next change he calls out isn't until May of 42. So, unless you can find other evidence of an change before 42 I'd go with Hansen's line-up.

Bruce

_________________
Bruce
OSC USN-Ret
Image

Currently on the building ways:
1/144 USS Stevens DD-479
1/144 USS Cook Inlet AVP-36
1/350 USS Hughes DD-410
1/144 USS Preble DDG-46


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:41 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 463
Location: USA
Thanks Bruce, once again.
Unless we hear otherwise, this is what I will go with.

Chuck

_________________
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 11:13 am
Posts: 261
Location: Michigan
Hello, everyone, hope all is well with you all! I have a couple questions for you fellow builders. First question pertains to the difference between the heights of the forward 20mm Galleries on the Quincy and Vincennes. I have plans for both ships, and when I compared them, there was only about .4mm difference between the two. Does this sound right? I thought there was a larger difference between them.

My second question is about the aft 20mm Gun tubs. The plans show them between the No. 3 Turret and the aft 1.1" Gun tubs as of 6/42. However, in viewing multiple photographs, I can't seem to see them. Can anyone confirm that these indeed were there at the time of her sinking in 8/42?

The plans are from the Floating Drydock. Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Justin

_________________
The Workbench:
1/700 Trump USS North Carolina
1/700 Trump USS Essex
1/350 Trumpeter USS Hornet
Future Builds:
1/350 Tam USS Missouri





Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 633 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group