The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:34 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 343 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:36 pm 
Offline
Resin Shipyard
Resin Shipyard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:00 pm
Posts: 551
Location: Bowmanville, ON, Canada
They are booms for deploying the Paravane located on the Port side, just in front of them.
They could also be used as a davit for hoisting items up the side of the hull.

Image

_________________
Darren (Admiral Hawk)
In the not so tropical climate of the Great White North.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 28
Quote:
They are booms for deploying the Paravane located on the Port side, just in front of them.
They could also be used as a davit for hoisting items up the side of the hull.



Thanks, are you referring to the top two light gray rods?

My question is about the dark gray tube closest to the deck (or on deck), which looks more like a container than a hoist. As there are such tubes close to all main turrets the container for cleaning rods seems quite likely explanation.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 987
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Did they use "cleaning rods?" We're not talking about a pistol you carry around on your waist. Large naval guns are very long, and a "cleaning rod" would have to be even longer. This would be cumbersome to handle on the deck of a ship - or the top of a lower turret.

I have seen photos of sailors pulling a bundle of rags or a brush on a rope through the barrels of battleship guns.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 28
Looks like they did use rods for cleaning.


Attachments:
weapons11.jpg
weapons11.jpg [ 38.97 KiB | Viewed 1143 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 2087
Location: Copenhagen
But why was then the tube not present earlier in the war? When the 20.3 cm guns were already present? ;) And when did she got paravanes?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 987
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
How about that!? And the picture also shows what might be the boom for the paravanes.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 892
Location: Flensburg, Germany
These tubes contained the barrels for sub-caliber firing. If I'm mot mistaken, the used 8.8cm barrels for the 20.3cm guns...

Happy :wave_1: ~ Olaf!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 1601
don't think it is a 88mm gun barrel as too heavy to manhandle to mount ontop of an existing barrel, no breach mechanism visible & 88mm gun barrel is longer then what is shown.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 892
Location: Flensburg, Germany
Not on top, but inside the 20.3-barrel...


Happy :wave_1: ~ Olaf!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 1601
how do you lift a 1700 plus pounds on the shortest listed 88mm into the main barrel & what do you use to prevent that barrel from recoiling back thru the 203mm breech?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 892
Location: Flensburg, Germany
To be honest, I have no idea. But I know there was/is a technical regulation for what they have called "Abkommschießen" (sub-calibre firing). Something of that kind could have been carried out by other navies, too.

And if you find 8.8 barrels to be too heavy-weighted, guess what they have inserted into Bismarck's and Tirpitz' 38-cm-barrels...

EDIT: The above sentence is rubbish. Actually, it was the 8.8 that was inserted into the 38cm. What they have used on the Hipper class' 20.3 is now unclear to me. Obviously something smaller... hehehe...


Happy :cool_2: ~ Olaf!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:52 pm 
I wouldn't say I know everything about the Prinz Eugen, but those canisters were the cleaning rods.
Image
Image
Image

Joe Hoffman


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 892
Location: Flensburg, Germany
Since there were eight canisters, this would mean that each of the eight barrels would have had its own canister for cleaning rods, just in case you would need to clean them all at once.

If only I could find the source for that sub-caliber firing thing. I only recall JK's books on Bismarck, in which he stated this. And since all major capital ships had those canisters in the direct vincinity of the turrets...


Happy :scratch: ~ Olaf!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 987
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
I have been following this thread and I am not clear what you mean by "sub-caliber firing." It sounds like you are saying that they inserted a smaller caliber barrel into a larger caliber gun.

Given the dynamics involved in firing a gun I can't see how that would work. The smaller caliber barrel would be relatively very thin metal. The pressure of the powder charge explosion would cause it to expand and jam in the larger gun barrel. Then you wouldn't be able to remove it without replacing the larger gun barrel.

You are talking about putting an 88 mm (inner) barrel into a 380 mm inside diameter barrel? That is a tube almost 380 mm diameter with a wall thickness of 146 mm and as long as the larger gun barrel. That would weigh tons and is not something you could man handle into place. It would require a fairly large crane and some kind of carriage to transport the barrel. Sounds pretty silly to me.

****

The US Navy (and other navies) used a technique called "sabot" where a smaller caliber projectile is carried in a larger caliber fitting (the sabot). The sabot is a low mass material, and the smaller projectile is less massive than the ordinary larger diameter projectile. Consequently, when the sabot projectile is fired with the normal powder charge for the larger diameter gun it is accelerated to a higher velocity than it would have in the smaller caliber gun. This gives it a significantly greater range than a larger caliber projectile would have in the same gun. The sabot falls away after the projectile leaves the gun barrel.

This technique goes back to the early 1800s. The US Navy used this technique to fire 5" caliber projectiles from 8" guns during the Vietnam war. I think (not certain) I recall that this gave the 5" projectiles a range of about 20-25 miles, as opposed to the 10 mile range of the 5"/38 gun.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 2087
Location: Copenhagen
I think Olaf is talking about a kind of sub-caliber firing, which was used for training. Sometimes an additional gun barrel was lashed on top of the normal barrel.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 892
Location: Flensburg, Germany
Yes, for training purposes, and to reduce wear of the precious barrels and of course, to save costs.

@ Phil ~ That is a very good point, re: pressure inside the barrel. Now, either inside or on top, I need to find that source. Maybe it's noted in Bismarck's AVKS report...


Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:18 pm
Posts: 464
Location: Tumut, N.S.W. Australia
Just out of curiosity. Where would I get a good set of plans for the Prinz Eugen? Something I could use to build a RC model. Looking for now, to build 1/72
Just need a link for now.

_________________
Building
1/72 Admiral Kuznetsov
1/72 Frunze Russian Battle cruiser
1/72 Steregushchy-class corvette

Mick
Tumut Australia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 1601
http://www.prinzeugen.com/PGplans.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:18 pm
Posts: 464
Location: Tumut, N.S.W. Australia
DavidP wrote:
http://www.prinzeugen.com/PGplans.htm


Thank you :woo_hoo:

_________________
Building
1/72 Admiral Kuznetsov
1/72 Frunze Russian Battle cruiser
1/72 Steregushchy-class corvette

Mick
Tumut Australia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 1601
no problem. I have frame drawings but not the locations on the side profile to where they are to be located tho can be worked out using the top profile.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 343 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group