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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:58 am 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Does anybody know names of the two aft turrets? And just as interesting: is there a story attached to these names?


Turret Caesar: Innsbruck
Turret Dora: Wien

Happy decal-printing ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:12 am 
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Thanks Olaf!

I hope someone will also tell the story behind these names...

Maarten

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:35 pm 
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nord wrote:
Hi
My Frist Post
Do you think that Trumrpter will do the Admiral Hipper in 1/700 :smallsmile: as thay are doing it in 1/350.I wil be getting the Prinz Eugen in 1/700 by Trumrpter do you think the WEM PE Set will work for these ships
i am geting back to model makeing after 25 years :thumbs_up_1:
all the best
nord

Are they likely to do Hipper in 1/700? Yes. Do I know for sure? Nope.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:21 am 
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Hello all,

I have been looking the last couple of days to what needs to be done to backdate the new Trumpeter 1/350 PE to the moment of Rheinübung. Thanks to the excellent initial list from Olaf (thanks! I used your list as the basis, you see) I was triggered to attach the building steps and parts involved, plus some suggestions hoew it can be done. Most changes can be made in a couple of minutes, I fear only the last one (change the AA platforms on the funnel to searchlight platforms) is difficult, unless you have spare Bismarck parts (Tamiya?) available.

WP21 = Warship Profile #21 Kriegsmarine Prinz Eugen

Errors in the kit (for all periods)

• Rudder hinge pin: hole in hull 1.6mm too far forward on kit, pin 1.8mm too far forward on rudder. Make new rudder hinge pin (brass rod) and make new locating hole in hull
• Centre propeller has wrong direction of rotation, should be the same as of port propeller. Take blades off and cement with opposite pitch angle.
• Boat booms missing completely, should be checked on photographs when carried on outside of hull. (These where not carried during Rheinübung)
• Propeller guard booms missing completely, should be checked on photographs when carried on outside of hull.
• Turrets Anton and Dora (A and D): remove ladder on LH side (when looking in firing direction) of turret
• Stern chock at extreme rear of hull above deck needs to be detailed (looks like a small bulwark now) ref WP21 page 71.
• Add pipe from scratch against main front member of mainmast (picture page 11 WP21)
I intend to replace at least the kit radars by brass PE versons from the GMM Bismarck/Tirpitz set.

Backdating to 22-27 May 1941 Operation “Rheinübung”

Step 2 parts F1 and G15/17. The four triple torpedo launchers did not feature their anti-spray copula. Use part F2 instead.

Step 3 parts F14/G37 (x7). Delete all 20 mm guns and fill holes in deck.

Step 5 parts G35, F14/G37. Delete 20 mm gun and platform. Fill holes in top of turret.

Step 7 parts G20 and G4. Delete these directors and replace by circular tub and 3m rangefinders.

Step 9 parts G22 (4x). Delete these Sumatra radar antennas.

Step 9 part C24. The large Tyfon ship’s whistle must be relocated from the roof of the bridge to protrude from the front bulwark of part A4, .. mm starboard of the centreline.

Step 9 parts B40/D10. Modify director house to have only one level. Cut/sand off all detail from top of B40, cut radar support and observation turret from D10 and cement these to B40.

Step 9 part B29. Replace FuMO 26 radar by spare FuMO 23 radar from mainmast (B19)

Step 10, parts G12/13 on B3/4. The two forward high-angle AA-directors are lacking their domed tops (in German: "Wackeltopf"). This pair was handed over to the Russians, together with the aft pair from Bismarck and together with the 3rd ship of the second batch of Hipper class cruisers, the Lützow (Feb. 1940). In place of the domed tops, ordinary 3m-rangefinders were installed. Build these from scratch, or use them from a Bismarck kit.

Step 10 part A11. The AA platform in front of the conning tower, directly above the Admiral's Bridge, was narrower and just featured a railing and a searchlight instead of the Flakvierling. Modify the kit part and add the searchlight, I use a spare from the Revell Bismarck kit.

Step 11 parts D2/21/22/27/28. From the additional deckhouse beneath the searchlight platform of the main mast, the upper storey needs to be removed.

Step 11 part B4. Aft of this additional deckhouse, between the main mast and the aft rangefinder/gun director base, there are a few changes in the layout of the bulwarks. I don’t have access to photos right now but check p.4 of this thread here. There is a photo which shows the additional bulwark. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t there in 1941.

Step 11 parts C38/39, A15 and B19. Delete all radars from mainmast.

Step 13 part (A)PE10. Replace slant railing with an upright one, covered by canvas.

Step 14 parts A5/6. The AA platforms on either side of the funnel were searchlight platforms, with hemispherical rotatable covers. Similar to Bismarck. Platforms can be modified by cutting off rear platform extension, and making fixed part of domed hood from scratch (Evergreen strip). Rotatable dome parts from Bismarck kit, or modified from spare Wackeltopf rangefinder (G12/13) which has the same diameter.

Disposition of boats, liferafts and paravanes still to be checked.

Please add your corrections and additions!

regards
Maarten

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:41 am 
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Hi Maarten ~ That's an impressive changes-to-do-list, thanks for that.

As I do not have the kit, what is Step 13 part (A)PE10. Replace slant railing with an upright one, covered by canvas.?

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:15 am 
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Olaf, you can check out our review here - it has shots of all the instructions and most of the parts:
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... eview.html
PE10 is that angled piece of railing in fret A.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:
Olaf, you can check out our review here - it has shots of all the instructions and most of the parts:
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... eview.html
PE10 is that angled piece of railing in fret A.



Stupid me ... thanks Timmy ... :thumbs_up_1:

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:48 pm 
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You already found out I guess... the kit supplies a nicely curved railing for the mainmast searchlight platform. Gives an outward leaning 'Kanzel' like the U-Boot machine gun Kanzel.

Is ok for later versions, but in '41 the railing was simply upright, so should be replaced with a piece of stock railing. And since it seems to be covered with canvas normally as wind breaker, this should be added by the modeller.

Does anybody have more sight on what boats were carried (and in what positions) during Rheinübung?

Cheers,
Maarten

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Thanks Olaf!

I hope someone will also tell the story behind these names...

Maarten



Prinz Eugen von Savoyen was one of the most famous "warlords" or commanders of the so called "Haus Österreich" (Blood Line of austrian aristocracy, succession) which is a part of european aristocracy in the 17th/18th century. (->napoleonic wars)
He and his succession was a guarantor for Austrias continental supremacy during these decades.

He is interessting for the contemporary (WWII) german propaganda for several reasons:

1.) He tried to motivate his troups for some idea or higher ideals, not for money or booty
2.) He led his troups personly into the battle and was wounded thirteen times.
3.) Hitler was austrian. (born in Braunau)


I am really sorry but my english is not good enough to depict all reasons why he was abused and used by german propaganda. Too hard for me to talk about it clearly and exact, offside my (german) motherlanguage.
Just take it as a reminiscense to Germany´s WWII ideology, that " what divided europe earlier, is now all united under a swastika" (new world order, new point of view, new identity)

Or a bit more plain:
Hitler was from Austria. PG´s Turrets are namend after austrian towns because of that.

Image
Prinz Eugen v. Savoyen (18. Oktober 1663 Paris; † 21. April 1736 Vienna)

I hope i was able to lighten it a little.

Best Regards and thanks for your work and sharing it with us.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:43 am 
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@ Alex ~ Thanks for the history lesson, I completely forgot to look it up ... :thumbs_up_1:

@ Maarten ~ I'm not quite sure about that railing thing:

Image

The red lines I've drawn into this shot taken during the Baltic trials may be a bit exaggerated but I think there was a slant in the railing right from the beginning. However, it stands to discussion if this slant would be visible in 1/350 (or 1/700 in my case) without giving it the look of a submarine's 'Wintergarten' ...

The canvas dodgers were not there on this railing during Rheinübung. At least photos from departing Norway and entering Brest do not show them. Anyway, if someone wants to add them - why not? Artistic license ...

I will soon share some progress on my model ...

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:36 am 
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Many thanks to Olaf and Maarten for their work on expalining how to achieve the May 41 configuration.

Olaf - did you find that close up photo of Tirpitz AA directors without the domes by any chance?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:08 pm 
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FrancisMcN wrote:
Olaf - did you find that close up photo of Tirpitz AA directors without the domes by any chance?


No, not yet. I found one showing a smaller rangefinder in place of the aft main gun director. I'm afraid this very photo spoiled my memory ... sorry ... but I'll keep my eyes open ...

With regard to the 1941 Prinz, there are one or two other differences, temporary 'solutions' for Rheinübung. Will show them once I have them on my model ... :cool_2:

Oh, there's another I'm sure everybody has heard of ... the absence of the stem anchor ... add this to your list Maarten ...

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:11 am 
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Hi Olaf,

You mention the STEM anchor but I believe you mean the STERN anchor? In lowercase typeface the two can easily be confused...

I also have to add one new feature: during Rheinübung (and also during Cerberus the next year) the PE very visibly had canvas blast bags around the 203 mm main gun barrels. During the earlier exercises in the Baltic these were not worn, and later on when the ship spent its later days in the Baltic these were removed again. Apparently only needed in the heavy seas of the Atlantic.

These blast bags are missing in the Trumpeter kit and will have to be made from scratch, Milliput seems the best choice here.

And yet another: Step 2 parts G16 and G37. Delete all AA gun splinter shields. These were apparently not carried on the 20mm and 37 mm guns at that time yet.



Maarten

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Actually, most of the large German ship DID, at some point, carry a STEM anchor. That is the one centerline on the bow. If you look at the pics of PE, she either has the stem anchor, or the haws-hole for it is visible. The larger German ships also carried a STERN anchor. I believe that on PE, both had been removed by the end of the war.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:01 pm 
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I checked the photographs, and you are completely right. The STEM anchor was deleted before Rheinübung, apparently to save weight forward. It was not carried anyway when entering Brest at June 1st. During the sailing from Norway both anchor cables were attached to the two bow anchors on either side, and not to the middle stem anchor, as was the case during one of the exercises in the Baltic.

What the situation is with the STERN anchor cannot be assured, no clear view in any of the photos. I would assume it was retained at that time.

Maarten

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:47 am 
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No, I meant STEM anchor. I have no idea why they left it away (on both ships). Some say it was to raise the bow a bit as the German ships were pretty wet forward, but I doubt that leaving off just one anchor could have impressend thousand tons of hull attached to it ...

Blast bags ~ I wouldn't stress this too far, neither everything else related to canvas, e.g. dodgers on railings or canvas covers for the main gun turrets. All of these things are to be seen on the ships every now and then, even Bismarck had canvas covers for the main gun turrets on board. There could be several reason why in some photos they are visible while in the other not.

The AA guns from step 2 (make 19 - HA!)
This reminds me on the two located on the f'c'sle. We know that they weren't there during Rheinübung but their 'bases' were. Look at my model where the red band/swastica was overpainted with grey. On the stb fwd edge and on the port aft edge of this grey band you can see those ring-shaped objects. I'm not sure about the ones on the quarter deck ...

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

EDIT: I was too slow in writing - you already sorted out the anchor thing ... :thumbs_up_1:
The stern anchor is visible in photos of the Prinz in American hands. The anchor should be still there today ...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:51 am 
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Admiral Hipper now available from Hobby Search. Take a look here!

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10098331

Also..take a VERY CLOSE look at the main mast. Looks like Trumpeter forgot the top part of the main mast entirely?! It shouldn't be hard to scratch build. I'm looking at my Koop/Schmolke book on the Hipper class right now and see several pictures with the top mast missing {lowered down? did this ship have telescoping main mast and foremast?}


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:31 am 
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I'm not sure if the mast was telescopic - could be ...

Anyway, the kit's mast plus its squared "crowsnest" looks odd ... the rest if the ship looks good at first glance.

Although I prefer the Prinz, I really like this martial and giant hangar box ... :heh:

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:59 am 
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Olaf Held wrote:
I'm not sure if the mast was telescopic - could be ...

Anyway, the kit's mast plus its squared "crowsnest" looks odd ... the rest if the ship looks good at first glance.

Although I prefer the Prinz, I really like this martial and giant hangar box ... :heh:

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


I'm really tempted to order this one soon..I have Trumpy's Graf Spee on order and it will be here next month.
Can't beat the price either. NT$1475 or around $45 USD. The Trumpy Prinz Eugen sells for NT$2200 or $68 USD

I have the Heller 1/400 Admiral Hipper that I bought off EBay many years ago. That one set me back around $150 USD.

Perhaps I'll be able to use the upper mast parts from that one on this one or just kit-bash with some styrene rod to complete it. I like the looks of Trumpy's Hipper very much though. Wonder if they'll be doing the Blucher? I've always wanted that ship in my collection.

Now onto my Academy 1/400 RMS Titanic kit. I'm starting that this weekend.
Just got it tonight and it's a GEM of a model. Beautifully done kit by Academy.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:11 am 
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Morton_In_Formosa wrote:
Now onto my Academy 1/400 RMS Titanic kit. I'm starting that this weekend.
Just got it tonight and it's a GEM of a model. Beautifully done kit by Academy.

Yes, and so wrong when compared to their 1/350 ... (sorry) ...

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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