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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:03 am 
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German built 3 "Panzerschiffs"
These 3 are raiders.
So, its possible to made also much protected Panzerschiff for Baltic & North Sea operations

"A"Pocket Battleship
Last year, I SpringSharp a "A" Pocket Battleship for Baltic & North Sea.

Laid down 1928
12245 tons st - 13253 tons full load
169x23.6x6.17
2T3x280
2T3x150
4T2x88
8x37
8x20
Belt 50/280
Bulkhead 40
Deck 100
Turrets 280/100/280
34400Shp-24kts-4000nm/14kts

Here is 1/700wl Scratchbuilt
Photos with Graf Spee - 1/700 wl

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Calling All Deutschland, A Scheer, Graf Spee models Fans!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:50 am 
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Back at the tail end of WWI the US Navy started to build the heavy cruisers. The previous armored cruiser class was dead, the battlecruisers had killed that class of ship off. So the USN used the CA designation for the new treaty cruisers.

The Deutschland class were the last armored cruisers. They were well armored and had great guns.

The German designers did a great job on the limited displacement they were given. Also, the treaty that limited Germany to 10K tons did a great job of limiting the ultimate size of the ships. Yes, the Germans cheated on the treaty. However, even they knew there was a limit to the obvious cheating. The Deutschland would have been a fantastic design if the weight had been bumped up to 20,000 tons and had three turrets with 11" guns. The treaty killed that ship design in the cradle.

I look at the design study of the 280 mm and 203 mm armed "improved Deutschland" as a possible 1930s version of a pre-dreadnought. I think it was a wonderful idea.

BTW, I'm trying to get a hull from that German company, Modelblau (sp?). I can scratch build the superstructure of Spee but don't care on making hulls.

Best of luck.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:12 pm 
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Gunner59 wrote:
Back at the tail end of WWI the US Navy started to build the heavy cruisers. The previous armored cruiser class was dead, the battlecruisers had killed that class of ship off. So the USN used the CA designation for the new treaty cruisers.

As an aside, during WW.I and up to 1919 the USA did not have any plans to build armored cruisers, although the battlecruisers could be considered the US idea of an armored cruiser.

The Pensacola is built to a specification which was not part of the original US plan, but which became standard after the Washington Treaty. Because they were not armored cruisers, they were originally typed "CL" for light cruisers. The CA designation for heavy cruisers was erected in 1931 to separate 8-inch and 6-inch cruisers following the London Conference in 1930.

General Board specifications make clear the ideal USN cruiser would be between 20,000 and 25,000 tons and would be armed with 12 x 8-inch or 9 x 10 inch guns. The 10-inch design became, after several revisions, the 12-inch Alaska, a satisfactory heavy cruiser for 1940, never a battlecruiser.

Real war experience demonstrated the futility of the 8-inch bag gun, and the ultimate cruiser - USS Des Moines was designed, able to fire over 100 8-inch rounds a minute. If this ship had been built in any quantity, it would be remembered as the ultimate gun ship, able to destroy anything afloat or ashore in a few moments.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:51 pm 
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I have attempted to build a card model of the Graf Spee that I downloaded from a Uruguayan modeling site, but it didn't work out. I was thinking a transfering the designs to sheet plastic. Does anyone know where online I could find the exact specifications for her?

TIA

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:57 pm 
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Avery, read this.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/index.html


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:08 pm 
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ddp wrote:


I'd take some of those words with a pinch of salt! :big_grin:

"the Kriegsmarine surface units archived some spectacular victories against the British Royal Fleet......the surface units did not prove to be effective in the the second half of the war. Caused by fuel restrictions, the wrong naval construction politics and and several operational restrictions ordered by the political leadership, the Kriegsmarine surface units were not able continue their successes of 1939-1941"

I don't think its fare to say that as by 1941 the Germans had lost Blucher, Graf Spee, Bismarck , 10 Destroyers at Narvik and they had lost some more destroyers also off the top of my head.

I don't remember in surface actions their forecs ever acheiving great things against the Royal Navy in direct action apart from sinking Hood up to 1941. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau where a major thorn in the RN's side though but to merchant shipping.

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 Post subject: Panzerschiffe
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:11 am 
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Ciao all,

here my ones :

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

Ciao Antonio :surfer:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:23 am 
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What's the best Graf Spee model in 1/700?


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 Post subject: ITALERI !
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:54 am 
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Ciao all,

ITALERI on 1 / 720,.. by far superior to either Fujimi, or Matchbox,....

Ciao Antonio :surfer:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:45 am 
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Hi disagree Antonio!! :big_grin:

I find Graf Spee or Deutschland (I own both) from Fujimi better detailed then the Italeri brothers. The Matchbox one barely plays in the same league!!! :heh:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:01 am 
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Ciao Felipe and all,

... and I accept your opinion my friend,.. :eyebrows:

.... we do not have the same one but that is perfectly ok for me :thumbs_up_1:

.. surely we have same opinion on the Matchbox kit,... :big_grin:

.. but to tell you the truth I found both of them largely inferior to the level of quality now kits reach on that scale.

Fujimi seems to me ' too fat ' .. like a '' pregnant '' ship, .. some details are very poor.
Italeri is not much better either, just the overall look seems a bit better.

Problem is that all of them only make Panzerschiffe with the straight bow, .. so the early years ( only Graf Spee remained like that ),.. in both cases Scheer and Graf Spee are same kit, .. they just forget about the differences.

The most important career of Lutzow ( former ex Panzerschiffe Deutschland ) and Admiral Scheer occurred with the bow modified with the atlantic bow and the raked funnel cap (see Heller on scale 1/400), lot more A/A guns etc etc.

That is why you need to buy other kits and '' cannibalize '' them if you allow me that bad word, ... so taking pieces from Tamiya Scharnhorst, Gneisenau or Prinz Eugen Kits and from Trumpeter Tirpitz-Bismarck.

Doing that you have better base parts,... than add the photo etched parts,.. using correct reference drawings and camo schemes, ... and you can make super detailed Panzerschiffe ... :thumbs_up_1:

Ciao Antonio :surfer:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:22 pm 
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Why to cannibalize other kits? There is PE-Flak on the market, which is much nicer anyways..

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 Post subject: Panzerschiffe drawings
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:08 am 
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Ciao all,

just take a look here in :

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=4435


.. and thank again Abram for his hard work.

Ciao Antonio :surfer:


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:18 am 
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I've a question about the paint scheme of Graf Spee at the time of the River Plate battle in 1939. (I'm currently building the Airfix 1/600 kit, and definitely intend to build the Heller 1/400 in future as well)

I seem to remember hearing recently that the camouflage (grey or dark green disruptive camo on the vertical surfaces of the superstructure and turret) is actually a myth, originating from the box art of a plastic kit in the 1960s (maybe the Airfix one?) and perpetuated by artists and modellers ever since. Is this true or not? I know this sort of thing has happened a few times in the past, with aircraft and tanks as well as ships.

One other Graf Spee question: Airfix's kit includes a plaque on the front of the bridge structure, inscribed "Coronel" (presumably referring to the WW1 battle in which Admiral Graf Spee fought). It seems a bit large to me - overscale or not? And would the plaque have been painted differently to the rest of the ship?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:38 am 
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EPinniger wrote:
I seem to remember hearing recently that the camouflage (grey or dark green disruptive camo on the vertical surfaces of the superstructure and turret) is actually a myth, originating from the box art of a plastic kit in the 1960s (maybe the Airfix one?) and perpetuated by artists and modellers ever since. Is this true or not? I know this sort of thing has happened a few times in the past, with aircraft and tanks as well as ships.


The camo was there. Click here for pictures. The myth is that it was green. It was most likely Dunklegrau 51 (the hull color) and Dunklegrau 2 (the color of the steel decks) over the base superstructure color of Hellgrau 50.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:44 pm 
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EPinniger wrote:
I've a question about the paint scheme of Graf Spee at the time of the River Plate battle in 1939.

One other Graf Spee question: Airfix's kit includes a plaque on the front of the bridge structure, inscribed "Coronel" (presumably referring to the WW1 battle in which Admiral Graf Spee fought). It seems a bit large to me - overscale or not? And would the plaque have been painted differently to the rest of the ship?


Like Martin said, the camouflage is there, but indeed GREYS not green. I have plenty of photos (provided by Antonio whilst we were making the Panzerschiff drawings) that show it there. The green camouflage was invented when a museum contracted a model builder ot build them a model of Graff Spee and for some reason they painted the camouflage green. Ever since many magazines, books, drawings, etc, have copied this and just used green. Just use the drawings Antonio and I have made and you won't go wrong :thumbs_up_1: (after all, we made them as a model builder's reference)

I've never seen the Airfix kit, so I don't know if the plaque is over scale, but it would have been light grey lettering and border with a black background (I could be wrong, but thats how it looks in all photos)

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:39 pm 
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EPinniger wrote:
Thanks for the advice! I painted my Matchbox 1/700 Graf Spee with green camo when I built it last year, but it was a very dark greyish-green so doesn't look too bad from a distance.

Would the overall paint colour have been "Hellgrau 50", or a lighter shade?


The hull would be Dunkelgrau 51, the entire superstructure Hellgrau 50, wood decks were natural, steel decks were Dunkelgrau 2.

It was the hull/deck colors that were used over the Hellgrau 50 as camo.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:02 pm 
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I watched the DVD footage of Graf Spee in Montevideo harbour a day or two ago.

It showed her camouflage rather well from port and stb. sides and also the damage she recieved.

I noted many holes in the hull by the 2nd false white wave painted amidships on the hull and of course the camouflaged superstructure.

The 2-3mins of good footage was on the DVD 'Century of Navy' produced by the Navy News & WH Smiths here in the UK.

I recommend this cheapish DVD to anyone wanting to paint her as she was at the River Plate, most of the footage was close up!

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Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Mon May 28, 2007 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:13 am 
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I've temporarily stopped work on the 1/600 Graf Spee, as I need to order some PE doors/hatches from WEM to add detail to the Airfix kit's featureless superstructure sides (I've already added PE ladders). I've started work on another Panzerschiff in a rather larger scale, Heller's 1/400 Scheer.
This is progressing very well - already over 50% complete in three days of work, I've added lots of scratchbuilt and PE detail and will probably also add the additional AA needed for the 1944 fit when I get the PE set from WEM.

However, I have another question: did the 6-inch gunhouses have "floors" or were they simply a shield over the top of the gun mount? I've added some basic scratchbuilt detail to the breech of the 6" guns, and am wondering whether I also need to remove the rear half of the turret base/floor mouldings.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:12 am 
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Hope you don't mind me posting a couple of W.I.P photos of my Scheer (1/400 Heller kit) in this thread:

Image
Heller's kit represents the ship in late-war fit, with the distinctive pyramidal bridge replaced by an almost "pagoda mast"-like structure, and an angled funnel cap. I've added a lot of detail, both scratchbuilt and generic 1/400 and 1/350 PE (mostly WEM). Still needs railings, radar, light AA (extra AA will be needed to represent the late-war fit), anchors and chains, crane details, rigging and a few other bits.

Image
Boats and Arado 196 detailed with styrene and PE offcuts (cabin windows on the motor launchers are made from 1/350 ladders). These have now been painted. Markings for the Arado will be added using 1/144 tank decals.

Regarding my question about the 5.9" (not 6"!) turrets, the one photo I've found which shows the backs of these turrets appears to show them fully enclosed, with doors in the backs:
http://www.please refrain from posting links to this site as they do not respect copyrights.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/1997_05/Pictures/25.jpg
Not sure if they were built like this or modified later, but either way it's probably safe to assume that the gunhouses did have "floors".

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