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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Same question was asked on Steelnavy. (Alan Raven's 1973 Ensign publication is the source of the brown/green/light grey idea.)

He says today:

"In the early seventies, the only data that I had on this ship as she appeared in 1940, leaned strongly to her being in the Flotta scheme, which Home Fleet cruisers were painted in at this time. After the Ensign was published, people came forward, all stating that the ship was never in brown and green, but in BLACK and GREY. Hence the difference in the later publication."


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:59 pm 
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Dick:

To my eyes, the dark color looks like AP507A (dark grey), and not black. Compare it to the waterline, which is a bit darker.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _A_447.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/46719559@N04/4814261473/

So I would say that the colors are quite possibly AP507A, B, and C.

My two cents.

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:22 am 
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Mike,

I'd like to agree. Although you sometimes see a bit of a contrast between the matt black of the paint used in camouflage panels and the doubtless more glossy black of the boot topping paint which was a different composition, the contrast is not normally as great as seen in the photos of Naiad.

But look in the area behind the drifter. Was there a fourth tone to the first version of the pattern at some point?

I suspect that Naiad’s scheme is out of the same stable as that worn by Jupiter in the summer of 1940: 507A, B, C according to Chris A-Langtree in "The Kellys".

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119325

Note also that contrary to what is stated in WP Vol 1 (page 46) the design of Naiad’s pattern did change as can readily be seen by comparing the two photos you have linked to.

(A number of the comments made in the camouflage paragraphs in Ensign 2 re the other early Dido class cruisers are out-of-date now that many more photos are available.)

(The commentary and design drawn in WP Vol 1 re Bonaventure is also wide of the mark.)

Best wishes.


Last edited by dick on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:25 pm 
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Dick:

Are there pictures of Bonaventure in that scheme online? Would love to see it.

Likewise, are you familiar with any photos of Hermione in the scheme shown in WP RN Camo v. 3--with the triangular grey panels on the hull? Please advise.

Thanks!

And great to hear from you!

Mike E.

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Last edited by Mike E. on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:16 am 
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This is the only one online that I can find online of Bonaventure in that scheme.

http://www.perthone.com/images/rn-bonav.jpg

It is a cropped and doctored version of a photo taken from York which I thought was on this site somewhere but cannot find it now.

Never seen a photo of Hermione in anything other than overall medium tone. She was still in this May 1942 during Ironclad contradicting the WP commentary. (See copious photos of her on IWM site.)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:52 am 
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Dick:

Many thanks!

BTW, what are the main differences you were able to discern between the schemes in two photos of Naiad?

They looked pretty much the same to me except for the very dark tone of the irregular panel by the stern in the first photo (as you mentioned), and maybe a slight variation in the pattern abreast of the drifter (as you called it) aside Naiad.

Is that what you were referring to?

Please advise.

Thanks!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:20 am 
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The obvious difference is the addition of a light tone panel amidships and the change in shape of the aft edge of the dark tone panel forward of it extending it aft immediately above the waterline.

There are then a series of other minor detail differences elsewhere doubtless resulting from repainting/touching up.

Attachment:
Naiad comp 3.jpg
Naiad comp 3.jpg [ 93.7 KiB | Viewed 2259 times ]


(Upper photo is taken at Alexandria and is later than the lower one which was taken at the Firth of Forth.)


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 5:46 am 
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Hi,

I have always been a fan of these ships since buying the Ensign book back in 1973! And I have always preferred the modified Dido's.

I may now be in a position to build one and it will be HMS Bellona.

I am not at home right now so I have limited access to research, but Freidman's book on British cruisers claims that Bellona (alone among the modified's) as well as having the six twin 20mms had four single 20mm's as built. The Ensign book claims that Bellona did have single 20mm's added, but in early/mid 44. I have copies of Fairfield's drawings of Bellona as built and I cannot recall seeing the single 20mm's on them. However, the single 20mm's may have been last minute builders additions. The limited available pictures of Bellona as built make it hard to tell if, or where, the single 20mm's are positioned. Does anyone have any thoughts?

During convoy RA64 where there are onboard shots of Bellona extra single 20mm's can be seen, as well as missing fwd searchlight positions which were later filled with 20mms.

Also, regarding the modifieds, Raven has in his Vol 3 Camouflage book that all were painted in variations of the Admiralty scheme, in B30, B55 and G10 (or G15, my memory is slipping here). I recently bought B30 and B55 from Sovereign (ex-WEM) and on test sheets they are almost exactly the same colour. One is a slightly bluer blue-green and the other is a slight greener blue-green.

The photos of all the modifieds seem to imply that while the dark grey is obvious, there is also quite a differentiation between the B30 and B55. My impression is that B55 is a light grey that hints to green and B30 is a much darker green. However, if you look at drawings in the Shipcraft Flower class book where several late war corvettes were painted white with B55 (instead of WA green or blue) panels, the B55 does look like a light WA green.

Royal Navy WW2 camouflage is a nightmare!

As the model will be 85inches long I would like to get close to correct :smallsmile: I must say that the centrefold of the Ensign book makes Black Prince look splendid.

Best regards
Sandy


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 9:05 am 
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Sandy,

Re your camouflage question, one of the contributory factors to the “nightmare” problem with RN WW2 camouflage generally is the number of inaccurate or poorly researched references.

The old WEM Colourcoats B55 is one of a small selection from their RN WW2 paint range that did not match chips/samples available in the UK archives and/or descriptions of the paints in the AFO’s, CAFO’s, ADM files or CBs.

B55 was a very light tone Blue Grey, considerably lighter than the old WEM B55. If you have any, I suggest you use the old WEM Western Approaches Blue as a good approximation to it.

B30 was a mid tone Blue Grey. The idea that it was a green is a complete nonsense. (I suspect I know where that idea comes from!) I would use the old WEM Colourcoats B30.

Best wishes.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:09 pm 
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Hello Dick,

Thanks for the information.

Sadly, I am not sure where I may get any of the old WEM paint pots these days.

However, Lifecolor do a WA blue, UA638, would that be any good for B55?

I know it is a bit of an ask but are there any equivalent colours from other companys that come close?

Or could anyone supply pictures of swatches of either of the two suggested colours.

Best regards
Sandy


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:39 am 
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sandy wrote:
I am not sure where I may get any of the old WEM paint pots these days.


I thought Sovereign was selling the leftover stock of the old WEM Colourcoats range ....?


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:52 am 
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Hello Dick,

That is what I have bought, but there is very little differentiation between B30 and B55, certainly nothing like that implied by photos of the five ships.

The B30 could not be considered a mid tone blue-grey. The B55 does hint at WA Blue, perhaps.

It is a great shame no-one has swatches that show the real colours.

As this is more camouflage than Dido it may be worth moving to the camouflage section.

But, I would be interested in finding a shade that is near B30 from any other ranges.

All the best


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Sovereign took some paints to the Scottish Nationals model meeting at Perth recently, but AFAIK that has been the only sales outlet so far - though direct contact may work wonders.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:03 pm 
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Maybe post questions about B30 and B55 at Camouflage & Coatings.

http://shipcamouflage.com/ RN WW2 Ship Colors Set 2 contains samples of both B30 and B55. They appear close to MS3 and MS4, respectively.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:51 am 
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Michael Potter wrote:
http://shipcamouflage.com/ RN WW2 Ship Colors Set 2 contains samples of both B30 and B55. They appear close to MS3 and MS4, respectively.


...and yet Set 3 gives alternative colours for B30 and B55 (as blues rather than the greys of Set 2) which is a puzzle. Which is correct?


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:17 am 
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According to the authors at the Ship Camouflage site, the differences between the sets are of time:

Royal Navy Set 1: early WW2

Royal Navy Set 2: 1942

Royal Navy Set 3: 1943

The USN had the same situation, in particular with 5-O ocean gray. Early-war 5-O appears blue-gray or purple-gray. Late-war 5-O neutral ocean gray was absent blue pigments and appears beige gray.

Many models of late-war and postwar USN ships use instead early-war blue-gray 5-O although color photographs of the actual ships, notably of USS Missouri (BB 63) in 1944, clearly show the late-war 5-O neutral ocean gray.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Hi,

My impression of the text in the shipcamouflage site is that actually the reverse holds true, in that the blue tinged B30 and B55 were for 1943 (in RN set 3) and that the grey tinged(in RN set 2) were actually what B30 and B55 became from 1943 onwards.

However, in some sense this is also a reverse as, as was pointed out, B30 and B55 could be seen as carryovers from MS3 and MS4. You could see the logic of using almost the same colour shade but rename them to correspond to the new naming convention.

Alan Raven's Ensign 2 book has the centrefold of Black Prince which looks very close to the grey versions of B30 and B55.

To some extent, and I know divining colour shades from black and white photos is tricky, all the photos of the modified Dido's in their original camouflage schemes look far more like the grey B30 and B55 in differentiation than the blue B30 and B55.

All the best
Sandy


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 1:15 pm 
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Sandy is right re the timescales suggested in that the blue colour B30 and B55 chips in Set 3 are labelled "1943" and the grey ones in Set 2 are undated.

The B30/B55 nomenclature was introduced for the first time in May 1943 so none of these names applied in 1942. We are dealing with 1943 onwards.

The whole point of the "B" in the names was that the paint's colour was a Blue Grey just as a "G" in the names of the paint meant is was a grey. A grey colour "B" paint is a nonsense. The B series paints looked distinctly blue.

My researches indicate that there was no difference between a 1943 B30/B55, a 1944 B30/B55 and a 1945 B30/B55 and I would really like to know why it is suggested that there was.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:32 pm 
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Complete newbie here.

Dad served on Dido in WW2 ( have his papers and medals) and i would dearly love to do a model of her.
I am primarily into 5in Gauge live steam, so what differences are entailed in ship modelling
What parts are available 'off the shelf' so to speak, and how much would i need to fabricate
What materials are used for the superstructure/etc
What scales ( and therefore the real life size) are available
I have looked through various websites but some give me 404 and suppliers appear to be a bit few and far between
Not really fussed if it is a working model, but something a bit bigger that the old Dinky toy ships wouldnt go amiss
Finally How much would i be looking to shell out for all the bits ( it surely cannot be dearer than my loco!)
I Live in East Berks any builders nearby?

sorry for all the questions

Ron


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:35 pm 
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silverfoxcc wrote:
Complete newbie here.

Dad served on Dido in WW2 ( have his papers and medals) and i would dearly love to do a model of her.
I am primarily into 5in Gauge live steam, so what differences are entailed in ship modelling
What parts are available 'off the shelf' so to speak, and how much would i need to fabricate
What materials are used for the superstructure/etc
What scales ( and therefore the real life size) are available
I have looked through various websites but some give me 404 and suppliers appear to be a bit few and far between
Not really fussed if it is a working model, but something a bit bigger that the old Dinky toy ships wouldnt go amiss
Finally How much would i be looking to shell out for all the bits ( it surely cannot be dearer than my loco!)
I Live in East Berks any builders nearby?

sorry for all the questions

Ron


Ron, this is probably too small for you but Flyhawk do a kit in 1/700 scale. I'm not sure what the differences are between Naiad and Dido although it seems that she had all five of the 5.25 inch gun turrets.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=158876

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