The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon May 21, 2018 11:20 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 136 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 9:09 am
Posts: 739
Location: Adelaide,SouthOZ
silverfoxcc wrote:
Complete newbie here.

Dad served on Dido in WW2 ( have his papers and medals) and i would dearly love to do a model of her.
I am primarily into 5in Gauge live steam, so what differences are entailed in ship modelling
What parts are available 'off the shelf' so to speak, and how much would i need to fabricate
What materials are used for the superstructure/etc
What scales ( and therefore the real life size) are available
I have looked through various websites but some give me 404 and suppliers appear to be a bit few and far between
Not really fussed if it is a working model, but something a bit bigger that the old Dinky toy ships wouldnt go amiss
Finally How much would i be looking to shell out for all the bits ( it surely cannot be dearer than my loco!)
I Live in East Berks any builders nearby?

sorry for all the questions

Ron

Southern Cross Modelships here in Oz does a 1/72 Dido hull and Al Pew of APS models does most of the deck fittings (main turrets, doors, etc), Sandy from a couple of replies back has one of his hulls...

_________________
building:
1/72 RC USS LONG BEACH CGN9
1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2176
Found this image of HMS Euryalus in her early camo entirely by accident in the IWM database. Had not seen it before and it does not exist outside IWM according to google...

Image
BRITISH NAVAL ESCORT AND CONVOY IN MEDITERRANEAN, SEPTEMBER 1941, ON BOARD HMS SHEFFIELD, ESCORTING A MALTA CONVOY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN (OPERATION HALBERD). THE CONVOY GOT THROUGH TO MALTA AFTER BEING ATTACKED BY THREE GROUPS OF ENEMY TORPEDO CARRYING AIRCRAFT HEAVILY ESCORTED BY FIGHTERS IN THE CENTRAL MEDITERRANEAN. 14 ENEMY AIRCRAFT WERE DESTROYED AND HMS NELSON WAS DAMAGED BY AN AERIAL TORPEDO.. © IWM (A 5771)IWM Non Commercial Licence

It appears the IWM site no longer supports comments... so no ship ID to attach for future reference....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:54 pm
Posts: 329
Nice picture. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:19 am
Posts: 185
Location: Washington, DC
Dear Mr. Foeth:

Are there other pictures anywhere else of Euryalus in that scheme? I didn't find any on the IWM site, or anywhere else online for that matter.

Thanks for posting.

Best,

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 422
Location: England
Dear Mike,

Its an evolution of

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205120448

I have others if you need them.

Best wishes,

Richard


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:19 am
Posts: 185
Location: Washington, DC
Dick:

What do you know... comparing the two, it's obvious now...!!

I might ask for your help on this, as I am planning to do that scheme for my Flyhawk Naiad, if I ever find the time to do so!!!

Thanks for the pointer!!!

Hoping you are well.

Best,

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2176
I tried to reconstruct the camouflage pattern as best as I could, not taking into account the latest image I just found ;)

Image

The colors are a bit off but give a nice indication. The port side of Euryalus is rarely photographed; I've in fact seen only one image and she shares the same camouflage pattern of Charybdis. As you would have it, her Starboard side is no where to be found on film. Cleopatra shares the same pattern as Euryalus with minor deviations and she too is only portraying her starboard side. As Charybdis was not fitted with the 5.25" I had to guess the pattern slightly around the turrets.

As the colors, I used the same combination as I think is applicable to other warships (HMS Prince of Wales), though I have no proof: MS1 / B5 / MS3/ MS4/ MS4a and this discussion is not closed.

The image Dick posted can be ordered plus 2 more from the UK National archives for less money and much (much) better quality than at the IWM :smallsmile:

ADM176-247-59 1-3


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:19 am
Posts: 185
Location: Washington, DC
Dear EJ:

Thanks so much for sharing your artwork with us!

FWIW, Alan Raven states in Warship Perspectives RN Camouflage Vol. 1 (p. 25), that the colors for this scheme as worn by HMS Cleopatra were MS 1, B5, B6, and MS4a.

Maybe the scheme as applied to Euryalus involved different colors--but anyhow, I convey the above simply for your information.

BTW, have you or anyone else seen a clear photo of the scheme in Vol. 2 of Alan Raven's RN Camouflage for HMS Hermione (p. 35) showing her in an overall light grey scheme with dark grey triangular panels on her hull and superstructure? WR says that it was based on a computer enhancement of a series of indistinct photos of Hermione at anchor in Diego Suarez in 1942. I found the series of photos I believe it was derived from here:

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29 ... hotographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/44 ... hotographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/44 ... hotographs

Hermione is on the right, or center-right foreground of all three photos.

Any better quality photos of Hermione in this scheme would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2176
HMS Euryalus carried a 5-tone scheme and it is nearly identical to HMS Cleopatra's pattern. My images are not good enough to discern either 4 or 5 tones for her; some tones are known to look nearly identical on some types of film (this is clear when comparing several photographs from the same time where B3 sometimes is darker).

As far as B is concerned, I made a small spreadsheet with the colors used by the RN before they switched to the B-types.

http://ontheslipway.com/wp-content/uplo ... mmary.xlsx

Except for HMS Prince of Wales, there are no ships that have B6 in combination with MS3 and MS4, so I think the use B6 is highly unlikely. I have no official documentation on what colors have been used, so its just a guess. You'll also see that MS2 replaced AP507A and MS4 replaced AP507C. I also have some doubts on the exact nature of some of these colors from the WEM range / Color charts based on what I've seen from samples from the archives others shared with me.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:49 pm
Posts: 204
Look on the main forum where Rick E. Davis has just posted photos of Euryalus (starboard) and Charybdis (port).

Plus others, and some nice destroyers too.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=160444


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Added link to Rick's posting of Dido class photos


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:19 pm
Posts: 435
Location: San Diego
Resin kit of 1/350 full-hull HMS Sirius:

http://ironshipwrights.com/pages/Sirius.htm

Price is higher than if the kit were styrene but your time is money.

_________________
If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, [atmospheric] CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm.
Dr James Hansen, NASA, 2008.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:19 am
Posts: 185
Location: Washington, DC
EJ:

I spoke to Alan Raven this evening, and he stated that the color call-out for HMS Cleopatra in his RN Camouflage monograph was from an individual who had transcribed the information from official camouflage design sheets before most were lost or destroyed.

Of course there is always the possibility that the data was incorrectly transcribed, that instructions in the camouflage design sheets were not followed by ships' captains, or that various exigencies required color substitutions, or that the camouflage design was implemented using different colors on Euryalis, but absent information indicating otherwise, I would say that this is the best information we have at this time.

Anyhow, I really enjoyed your artwork, and thank you sincerely for your contribution to this debate.

Best,

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2176
At least it sounds there is a relation with official documentation so it might very well be correct. I actually worked by projecting my conclusions of HMS Prince of Wales on to HMS Euryalus: here B6 is also mentioned as the main color. That raises some interesting questions, the main one being: what did B6 actually look like? From what I've seen of archive specimens B6 is not near the vicious color that WEM put in their tins but more a mid-dark blue. That would not really match with the tone on B&W photography but without a good reference I cannot be certain... The color footage of HMS PoW certainly does not show a tone this blue but more something towards MS4/4a (and again I have my doubts if those colors are correct in the WEM tins as well, not so for the rest of the MS range).

Image
(for reference)

I'm aware of the caveats between official documentation and actual war practice. As Euryalus and Cleopatra received their patterns at the yards, and they are so alike, there is not much evidence of creativity. Perhaps B6 is correct and the official documentation did show B6 next to other tones that no other official scheme has. I only need some better paint samples of B6 :)

(Also, the artwork is by Raven, I added some colors).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:19 am
Posts: 185
Location: Washington, DC
EJ:

There was a recent discussion on Steelnavy about B6. It is still on their site (on page 2 or 3).

Dick very kindly provided a link to a RN WW2 B6 "shade card" alongside a swatch of WEM B6 as well as a couple of other WEM colors:

https://picasaweb.google.com/dickfalmou ... -Suv_rQgQE

Hope this helps!

Mike E.

_________________
Mike E.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2176
Thanks! I know them very well, Dick has been my source for the archive material. I have footage of 2 paint chips, one of which contains B6. Between the two sources, the one that holds B6 also shows AP507C to be very blueish while the other does not. The pic below certainly not colour accurate so beware, as always with colours :big_grin: (MS4/4a look very weird). If you take the chips over at SN, B6 is a more neutral grey...


Attachments:
Compilation CAFO and ADM_s.jpg
Compilation CAFO and ADM_s.jpg [ 78.2 KiB | Viewed 2688 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:01 am 
Dear all,
May I congratulate Mr Foeth for his expertise in his construction of camouflage profiles in this and in the PoW thread, they are without doubt amazing and superb. I am, and have been, a big fan of Mr Raven and his wealth of experience in camouflage matters is outstanding thanks to his opportunity to talk to eye witnesses to camouflage profiles long lost (Unfortunately!). I have always struggled with research into Royal Navy paints, I have read sources that state that pre war Home Fleet ships were painted 507a and that 507b was introduced in 1940 and was a 50/50 mix of 507a and 507c. However I have found that the pre war Home Fleet colour was always designated 507b and had its own mixing instructions, would it be plausable that if there was a 50/50 mix in 1940 then it could possibly have been with 507b and 507c giving a lighter blueish colour (B6 or even B5 for example?) that may have been used on earlier ww2 graditional camo schemes (Revenge ect) and then continued together with the MS range when matt paints were introduced? I believe that B5 reflection factor was 15% and 507b was 13% (B6 was 30%) which all seems a little confusing as with wartime monetary constaints it seems odd to have two paints that seem to do the same job unless there was a vast chroma difference? I realise, and apologise, that this post perhaps only adds to the confusion but the 507a 507b B5 B6 question does seem to impact on a lot of camo schemes.
Thank you for the chance to post a question and for all the contributions by more learned than I on a well informed and excellent forum,
Cag.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 422
Location: England
Cag/guest,

How closely your research seems to parallel mine! There seem to me to be an awful lot of incorrect writings (“sources”?) about the development of Royal Navy paints and camouflage out there.

One such is the erroneous narrative that Royal Navy Home Fleet ships were painted a “dark grey” interwar and did not start to paint to a “medium grey” until after the outbreak of WW2 and that the dark grey was 507A and the medium grey was 507B.

In your researches at TNA I hope that you have found the reference that shows when the WW2 era 507A was actually introduced (1939) and what the (small) difference between it and 507B actually was in reality.

What is your reference for the reflectance of 507B being 13%?

I would love to know the origin of the false idea that 507B was the result of a 50/50 mix of 507A and 507C. However 507B/C mixes such as you suggest might have been done, unofficially, to produce those gradations (as on Ramillies) but if so they would have been shades of grey. No mix of 507B and 507C could have produced the blues B5 and B6.

Although it had a close reflection factor, B5 was a very different colour to 507B in reality. B5 was a very distinct blue.

Best wishes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2176
Thank you for the complement; the HMS PoW scheme was a joint effort by me and Dick. I also read 507B was a 50/50 mix but that does should not result in a blue tone. If I compare 507B to B5 using the WEM tins knowing that a) WEM is a near-perfect match for the Snyder & Short color charts and b) WEM tins have the exact color of the contents on the lid, you'll see these interpretations are nearly identical

Image

Also, from my spreadsheet with all the colour data (link) I have it follows there is only one ship listed having both B5 and AP507B: HMS London. So, one could state the colours rarely if ever (assuming HMS London indeed carried both) appeared in the same scheme and B5 is in fact the replacement. This doesn't necessarily means they are the same tones as there are more combinations of colours that do not or rarely appear side by side, however, this does make sense if one assumes that AP507A/B/C were replaced by MS2/B5/MS4. I updated the spreadsheet with this assumption in the second half. White does not appear much with other colours, simply because it wasn't used often, but B6 still never shows up with MS3 and M4 other than allegedly in HMS PoW and Euryalus.

I also do no mind more confusion and I'd love to find more material indicating B6 was a blue and slightly darter variant of MS4/507C. It would make the comparison between what Raven states (B6 indeed applied to HMS PoW) and the footage (both B&W and colour) more agreeable. Does the recipe for B6 appear anywhere? One wonders if there is a student out there with in interest chromahistory...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:31 am 
Hi all
Hello Mr Foeth, In my amateur research (National Archives and RN Museum) there are papers (ADM 212/123) that give Duke of York in 'Home Fleet Grey' as 13% reflection factor (Which I presume was still 507b?) which is close to the B5 figure, but also mentions 507a which together with later ones (ADM 212/124) give, if I remember correctly, a reflection factor of 10% (I believe that there is also a CAFO that states in 1941 that 507a was retained and 507b was discontinued together with 537 white?). This is where my confusion lies, some articles imply 507a as a 1920's colour but I'm sure the answer will come! I have posted on the PoW thread about a CAFO I've found relating to her camouflage which gives a NS (Naval Stores) reference which may be an avenue to study as I believe they are still around?
Cag.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Posts: 422
Location: England
The idea that the WW2 era 507A originates in 1920 is a nonsense. I wonder where you have read that? The 1920 era 507A was the WW1 era 507A which was a dark pure grey (no blue in the mix). It survived no later than 1926 and may in practice have been dropped from use much earlier. After that there was no 507A until 1939.

In the Teddington trials of October 1942 (ADM 212/124) the various samples of 507A tested were found to have a reflectance of 10-13%. So if you have found a file note saying 507B had a reflectance of 13% you have found corroborating evidence that 507A and 507B were very similar. But both 507A and 507B were called “Grey, dark, Home Fleet shade,”. Do you have the date and exact wording of the note re DoY in ADM212/123?

Yes, 507B was officially discontinued in September 1941 (CAFO 4074). B5 did not replace it but had existed alongside it since the start of the year or earlier. B5 was a very different colour to 507B. It was a distinct blue. My guess as to why the old WEM Colourcoats 507B and B5 are so similar is that someone misidentified a sample of 507B as B5.

I cannot see where you have posted a Naval Stores reference to PoW’s colours – please can you repeat that here.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 136 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group