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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Hi Guys,

Can someone help me as I'm doing some research on USS Abbot for a model I'm building.

When did Uss Abbot get modified to carry extra 40mm guns were the first torpedo tubes were and what was her paint scheme at the time .

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Brian

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Brian,

If I understand your question right, you are asking about when USS ABBOT had the waist twin 40-mm mounts and the forward torpedo tubes replaced with two quad 40-mm mounts. Known as the Anti-Kamikaze Mod. If that is your question, the answer is that she never had quad 40-mm mounts.

USS ABBOT was completed in the three twin 40-mm mounts and ten 20-mm configuration. After a collision in October 1943 while training with carriers off Pearl Harbor, she was repaired and had the two twin 40-mm mounts installed before her bridge replacing the three 20-mm guns that had been there. From that point on, she was in this five twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm configuration throughout WWII and into mothballs. When recommissioned for the Korean War, after a short shakedown period, she immediately went into the yard and was one of the very first units to be upgraded to the "4-Gun" mod, aka four 5-in guns and three twin 3-in mounts in 1951.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Brian,

If I understand your question right, you are asking about when USS ABBOT had the waist twin 40-mm mounts and the forward torpedo tubes replaced with two quad 40-mm mounts. Known as the Anti-Kamikaze Mod. If that is your question, the answer is that she never had quad 40-mm mounts.

USS ABBOT was completed in the three twin 40-mm mounts and ten 20-mm configuration. After a collision in October 1943 while training with carriers off Pearl Harbor, she was repaired and had the two twin 40-mm mounts installed before her bridge replacing the three 20-mm guns that had been there. From that point on, she was in this five twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm configuration throughout WWII and into mothballs. When recommissioned for the Korean War, after a short shakedown period, she immediately went into the yard and was one of the very first units to be upgraded to the "4-Gun" mod, aka four 5-in guns and three twin 3-in mounts in 1951.


Sorry for the confusing question.

Yes I was asking about if Abbot did carry quad 40mm guns on the waist positions. My take on your answer is there were 2 twin 40 just in front of the bridge, 2 on the waist, 1 between turrets 3 and 4.

I was thinking of paint her as in 1945 configuration and according to http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm Abbot carried measure 21 thourghout the war.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:18 am 
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I don't know exactly when USS ABBOT was repainted in Ms 22 (mostly likely in about March 1945), but was by mid-1945 (I have images of her in June and August 1945 of her in Ms 22).

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
I don't know exactly when USS ABBOT was repainted in Ms 22 (mostly likely in about March 1945), but was by mid-1945 (I have images of her in June and August 1945 of her in Ms 22).

Image


Great photo.

thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Hello fellas. Been away a while . . . work, life, gets in the way of important things like modelling. :)

Settling into retirement and back to work on my 1:144 Revell Fletcher being built as the square bridge USS Luce in Dazzle camo.

I am getting conflicting info as to whether she was in Measure 31 (5-H, 5-O, Dull Black) or 32 (5-L, 5-O, Dull Black) after her refit in San Francisco in summer 1944. usndazzle.co says she was in Measure 31-18D . . . so the light color is either Haze Grey or Light Grey . . :/

http://www.usndazzle.com/ships.php?category=4&class=8

Whereas shipcamouflage.com says she was in measure 32-18D . . .

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm

I found at least two other online references that supported the measure 32-18D but for the life of me I can't find them now.

These are the two best photos I have found of her in Dazzle, the second one was supplied to me here on this forum by Rick Davis (Thanks Rick!) several years ago. Sure looks like Light Grey to me . . but what do I know :/

Image

Image

FWIW I sent several emails to Lee at usndazzle.com but they were returned with the message that "recipients email box is full" or something like that . . .

Thanks in advance!!! :)

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:00 am 
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Lee likely has the best info on USS LUCE (DD-522). He has been going through not only photos, but has been studiously going through the BuShips records for each destroyer and in camouflage records for instructions.

Lee's E-Mail at his website gets full pretty quickly, give him some time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:37 am 
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Thanks Rick. What have you got for Luce pics? Anything that isn't already out there? The one above of her in the yard wasn't out there 'till you posted it to me a few years ago, as far as I know. Thanks

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:45 am 
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I have not come across any more images of USS LUCE (DD-522) while she was painted in dazzle. I have some additional views while she was in Alaskan waters in her pre-dazzle period.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:09 pm 
There are two pieces of info that indicate DD-522 was in 31/18D. One is the established rule from PacFleet that odd-numbered destroyers would get Measure 32 and even numbered DD's would be in Measure 31; this rule was broken only a handful of times. Second, the cover memo from BuShips to DD-522 dated August 1, 1944, listed the enclosed drawings were for 31/18D. Granted, there were occasional typos in these cover memos (over 1400 sent out in twelve months), I have found an error rate of about 3 to 4 per cent; so, there is at least a 95% chance DD-522 was in Measure 31. The photos can be deceptive, newly painted haze gray sometimes shows up light in photos. I was fooled myself by the photos of LUCE at first until I saw the documentation. The BuShips camouflage team commented a couple of times that photos were light because the wrong filter was used.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
I have not come across any more images of USS LUCE (DD-522) while she was painted in dazzle. I have some additional views while she was in Alaskan waters in her pre-dazzle period.


Rick I would be exceedingly grateful if you could forward those to me. Thanks

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:57 pm 
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LeeJohnson wrote:
There are two pieces of info that indicate DD-522 was in 31/18D. One is the established rule from PacFleet that odd-numbered destroyers would get Measure 32 and even numbered DD's would be in Measure 31; this rule was broken only a handful of times. Second, the cover memo from BuShips to DD-522 dated August 1, 1944, listed the enclosed drawings were for 31/18D. Granted, there were occasional typos in these cover memos (over 1400 sent out in twelve months), I have found an error rate of about 3 to 4 per cent; so, there is at least a 95% chance DD-522 was in Measure 31. The photos can be deceptive, newly painted haze gray sometimes shows up light in photos. I was fooled myself by the photos of LUCE at first until I saw the documentation. The BuShips camouflage team commented a couple of times that photos were light because the wrong filter was used.


Lee, thanks for taking the time to respond to my inquiry!!!

There is no arguing with that for sure! Unfortunately I have already painted the hull and the 5x38 caliber turrets in Measure 32 . . . :( but it is not a game stopper to rectify that. I am an amateur analog photographer myself (B&W film, medium format, my OTHER hobby ;) ) and I was sure that the yard image was at least over exposed. Note that in that image the deck pattern appears the same as the 5-O and 5-L of the vertical surfaces.

Do you have any images of the Luce? She was one of the "camera shy" Fletchers so I am always seeking new photos. ;)

Thanks again Lee!!! Your website is a labor of love, Thanks!

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Rick Davis . . . I remember several years ago there was a discussion here on this . . . It was a Bethlehem Steel thing and I don't remember seeing this image in the thread. Not sure where I found this pic . . .

USS Luce DD-522 during refit in San Francisco showing the Bethlehem "cut off" mod to the aft stack platform, Aug 1944:

Image

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:21 am 
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LoB,

I can't locate your E-mail address, please go to the members message center and either send me a PM or E-Mail me with your E-Mail address.

Rick


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Hello to all Fletchers ... :-)
I would like ask you for help - I plan start of build 1/144 Revell's Fletcher in near future and I want finish it in dazzle camo ... Somewhere on net I found info about the book "U.S. Navy Fletcher Class Destroyers in Wwii Dazzle Camouflage" by C. Lee Johnson, but not any possibility where can order it. Can you anybody help me with information about some e-shop where I can buy it?
Thanks a lot ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Plooskie,

Lee how has a website that actually has much more updated info on the Dazzle Camo of FLETCHERS and other USN ships.

Rick

http://www.usndazzle.com/

Thanks Timmy. I realized that I forgot the link and had to wait until the next message I was posting could be loaded because of the time delay between posts.


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:40 pm 
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The first and only FLETCHER class destroyer I saw in-person in the original WWII configuration was USS SIGSBEE (DD-502) at Philadelphia NSY in 1972 and 1973. For years, I have wanted to build a model of her as she appeared in her last configuration during WWII, which was the Anti-Kamikaze mod with quad 40-mm mounts. USS SIGSBEE was badly damaged by Kamikaze attack in April 1945, taking off her stern. She was towed back to Pearl Harbor Navy Yard and was repaired there. While being repaired, PHNY was tasked with updating her to the Anti-Kamikaze Mod. SIGSBEE was the only FLETCHER class destroyer that PHNY modified to the Anti-Kamikaze Mod. As with a lot of modification work, individual yards did some things differently even while following the official plans. Mostly bulwark construction methods. SIGSBEE when compared to other Anti-kamikaze Mod FLETCHERS has a noticeable "gap" in her main deck bulwark. SIGSBEE at Philadelphia in 1973 had most of her bulwarks around gun mounts removed as they got so rusted and "IF" the ship was ever pulled out of mothballs for use by the USN or a foreign country, her 40-mm gun mounts and bulwarks would be removed anyway. As a result, I had no idea of what most of the bulwarks on SIGSBEE looked like in 1945. For years my build desire was stalled because I couldn't find photos of USS SIGSBEE after her upgrade was completed.

In more recent years thanks to John Chiquoine and others in the DesRon 25 reunion circuit, I got access to post-WWII photos taken by crewmen and found a few images at NARA. As I studied the images, I realized that the Trumpeter "THE SULLIVANS" 1/350 scale kit with that kit's Anti-Kamikaze Mod option had accuracy issues for building a model of USS SIGSBEE in late 1945. Plus, I knew and planned on kit-bashing a Tamiya FLETCHER kit for the Round-Bridge and some other parts that had better detail than the Trumpeter kit. I decided to use the Tamiya bridge, midships deckhouse, and stacks and the hull, main deck, forward deckhouse and aft deckhouse from the Trumpeter kit. I wasn't looking forward to scratch-building or trying to modify the various parts that would complete my build of a 1945 USS SIGSBEE.

This gets me to the 3-D printed parts I'm using made by Model Monkey (Steve Larsen) and Starship Bob (Bob Morgan).

I got a set of the 3-D printed 5-in/38cal mounts to replace the Tamiya and Trumpeter kit mounts from Model Monkey. These look great and have been reviewed before.

The small deckhouse that the directors for the quad 40-mm mounts found with the Trumpeter kit just doesn't look right, so I used the 3-D printed version by Model Monkey. I'm very pleased with it, it looks very close to the deckhouses used on many FLETCHERS, being an almost exact match to the deckhouse that SIGSBEE had, and has details lacking on Trumpeter kit parts. I had to do some trimming on the Tamiya midships deckhouse and very lightly "sand" off printing artifacts from the bottom of the small director deckhouse to get a perfect fit.

The Trumpeter kit has the "MINY-style" of "D-shaped tub" for the aft twin 40-mm mount. Amazingly to me, neither Tamiya or Trumpeter have the proper aft deckhouse 40-mm "tub" as an option in their FLETCHER class 1/350 scale kits. I replaced the MINY-style "tub" with the type that USS SIGSBEE had (and that was the type installed on most of the FLETCHER's as built), I call the "Tear-Drop tub" made by Starship Bob. I'm very pleased with it. It looks like the typical aft 40-mm "tub" and deckhouse with many little details adding to its appearance. However, I do need to get use to 3-D parts being more delicate than I'm use to with most "kit plastic" parts. :smallsmile:

The Trumpeter waist quad 40-mm "tubs" and bulwarks are not quite accurate. They have the general shape, but lack some key features. The actual bulwarks had ready-use ammo clips around the inside of the bulwark in most places, but also used what I call "bins" for higher density stowage of ready-use ammo. In the same "bulwark wall" space, the bins afforded three times as much ammo to be stowed. The SUMNER-GEARING class destroyers had the same or similar bins for their quad 40-mm "tubs". Each bulwark for the quad 40-mm mounts had either three or four of these bins installed in "bays" built into the bulwarks. See the attached images of USS YARNALL with three bins per bay and and USS with four bins per bay. Steve has designed these bins into 1/350 scale as best as can be done in my opinion. I love them. I was pleasantly surprised that after trimming off the out-of-scale- raised anti-skid and deck edge on the Tamiya midships deckhouse and the deck edge riser on the Trumpeter kit main deck, that the quad 40-mm "tubs" and clipping room below it fit exactly in place.

It looks like at least half of the 50 FLETCHER's converted to the Anti-Kamikaze Mod during the war and three units started after WWII, had the three 40-mm ready-use ammo bins bays and the rest had the four bin bays. USS SIGSBEE and USS KIDD and the first units converted had the 3-bin bays and the 4-bin bays were adopted later. It is hard for me to catalog which units had which, given that so many of the FLETCHERS being completed as the war ended, simply lack photographic coverage.

USS YARNALL (DD-541) with three ready-use ammo bins per mount bays
Image

USS PICKING (DD-685) with four ready-use ammo bins per mount bays
Image

Images of my build with the various 3-D items installed prior to painting and then after a base coat (to show me where I need to fix gaps etc.). :big_grin:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Very nice Rick! I am awaiting a box full of Shapeways 3D parts for my 1:144 . . . . Are they the same as Model Monkey? How was the quality?

Thanks, Doug

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Model Monkey (Steve Larsen) makes many of his 3-D printed parts in multiple scales, including FLETCHER parts for 1/144 scale versions of these same parts I discussed above. He is under the Shapeways umbrella ... he designs his parts and Shapeways prints them and ships them. I don't know which parts you have ordered, but you should be able to see who the designer was for what you ordered.

The quality of the parts I have gotten from Shapeways for both Steve Larson and Bob Morgan designed items, have been excellent. I have not ordered 3-D printed parts from any other vendors for comparison. I look at the photos of actual printed parts on Shapeways to gage what I should get.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:00 am 
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Doug wrote:
Quote:
Very nice Rick! I am awaiting a box full of Shapeways 3D parts for my 1:144 . . . . Are they the same as Model Monkey? How was the quality?


I am also going to build a 1/144 FLETCHER class DD but in the 4-gun 1960s configuration. I've purchased both Model Monkey parts for this build as well as parts from diStefan and 3D Boats by hawkins751511 (all Shapeways designers). I've worked with Steve (Model Monkey) on several product designs and I would have to say his parts, without question, are on the leading edge of CORRECTLY SCALED ship model replacement parts. As he has stated, he works from actual plans and photos in order to get the designs correct.

Hank

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BB-62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late 1940 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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