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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:28 pm 
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Looking for information on post war fletchers. Specifically DD540 USS Twining. Trying to build but need help with some small items. Would like to get my hands on some good pictures during or right after her refit in 53. Information needed for detail work.

Thanks
Tim


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:09 pm 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Marvink9 wrote:
Looking for information on post war fletchers. Specifically DD540 USS Twining. Trying to build but need help with some small items. Would like to get my hands on some good pictures during or right after her refit in 53. Information needed for detail work.
Thanks Tim


Are you building from a kit, if so, which one and scale? If not, what scale are you scratch building this model? Also, will your model reflect her in 1953 or later?

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USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
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USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:20 pm 
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he is talking about this thread http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_su ... 86336.aspx & it is Rick E. Davis not R.E. David he is looking for.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:08 am 
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Tim,

Knowing the answers to Hank's (BB62vet) questions would help us to answer your questions. Also, why you selected USS TWINNING (DD-540) and 1953.

USS TWINNING (DD-540) has an interesting history among the FLETCHER's in the Post-WWII era. She was one of five FLETCHER's selected on the West Coast to be Naval Reserve Training (NRT) units on the West Coast in 1946. Between 1946 and 1950, these five units were half "mothballed" and used as deck-side trainers and occasionally took cruises. Only a few of the weapons were functional. When the Korean War started these five were among the first units to be activated during the KW Mobilization and brought up to full commission. During her NRT years, she was still in her final WWII configuration, with five twin 40-mm mounts. After returning to full commission, she went through several refits/overhauls before 1953 timeframe that you mention as your target period to model her as. She went on to serve in the USN into 1971, returning to NRT service in 1964.

From about December 1950 to 7 June 1951 she was overhauled at Todd Shipbuilders and MINSY. These two yard periods resulted in her getting upgraded to the standard "5-Gun" configuration; five 5-in guns, two quad 40-mm and one twin 40-mm mounts, one five torpedo tube mount, two hedgehog ASW projectors forward of her bridge. At this point she still had her WWII radar suite on a pole foremast, except that her Mk 4 fire control radar was replaced and upgraded to the Mk 25 radar.

Then from 16 June to 15 September 1952 she was overhauled at SFNSY, where she received a tripod foremast, but retained her WWII SC-2 radar, also her sonar was upgraded at this time. Also, she had the Unit Commanders Cabin installed aft of the bridge (about one in four FLETCHER's received this mod). This also may have been when her six twin 20-mm gun mounts were removed.

This would be her configuration during most of 1953. However, since you say "after her refit in 1953", she didn't have a refit/overhaul in 1953. But she did have a "Restricted Availability" (short yard period) starting in December 1953. This work installed a new radar that was NOT available during her 1952 overhaul.

From 7 December 1953 to 4 January 1954, at the USN Repair Facility, San Diego, CA, she had her SC-2 radar replaced/upgraded to the SPS-6C radar.

This is where I'm unsure of what photos you need/want. I don't have images of her with a tripod foremast with a SC-2 radar, only after the SPS-6C radar was installed. However, replacing the SPS-6C that appears in 1954 photos is relatively easy to do. Here are the two images I have of USS TWINNING (DD-540) in 1954 after her "1953" radar upgrade. If I know what you need (the Commander's Cabin is tricky) I likely can get you images from a TWINNING image dating after 1954 or from another FLETCHER that will fill-in that information. I will tell you something that is unique, during her 1954-5 cruise with the 7th Fleet, she was modified with an interim Mk 32 ASW torpedo launch system (known as PMGL) at Sasebo, Japan on her fantail. I have photos of that installation dating in May 1955.

Image

Image

Here is an additional image dating from May 1955. Other than the mods done on her fantail for the PMGL on the fantail, this is how she appeared in 1954 and with a SC-2 radar in place of the SPS-6C radar, in 1953. You can see where the Commanders Cabin was located aft of the bridge under the tripod mast.

Image

PS; Should have checked Navsource sooner. They have a few good images of USS TWINNING (DD-540) from the 1951-53 period. ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/540.htm ...

Specifically, for her 1951 refit at MINSY ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0554014.jpg ... and ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0554015.jpg ... these provide good close-up views of her major upgrades.

Then for her appearance in 1953 prior to upgrading to SPS-6C, while she had the SC-2 radar on the tripod foremast ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0554025.jpg ... and ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0554035.jpg ...


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:19 am 
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Tim's story is here. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=304836


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:15 am 
Hi;

Did you have a particular ship in mind? Many Fletchers went into mothhballs at the end of the war and were later reactivated for duty in Korea. Some of those remained in service until the 1970s. After Korea many of them were substantially modified. For example, the USS Cassin young took heavy damage from Kamikazi attacks during the war, was repaired reactivated for Korea and served into the seventies. Now it's a museum ship in Charlestown MA and very well maintained. It was substantially updated along the way and is significantly reconfigured from World War II. Quite a few wartime survivors followed the same process and the variations among them are substantial. Not only do ships in a class vary, but the configuration of a ship during its career does as well. It would be a good idea to pick a particular ship and research the daylights out of it. Generally speaking, the longer they last the more different they get. It's something to consider depending upon how much into the project you want to get. Hope this helps.

Regards, rjccjr


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:20 pm 
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David,

Your posted link comes back as topic does not exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:42 pm 
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it appears the thread was removed maybe due to multi-posting, don't know so we'll try his original thread on finescale site. http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_su ... 86336.aspx


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:08 am 
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Boy, that link to Finescale has more misinformation about the Post-WWII (and in general) FLETCHER class that would take a week to correct. Two different types of stacks on the class???? Sounds like that guy is thinking about the difference between BENSON and GLEAVES class units. Marvin has to be completely confused by the mixed advice.

Marvin,

Since you are modeling a Square Bridge FLETCHER, the Trumpeter 1/350 scale THE SULLIVANS is probably a better start of the two options. Both Tamiya and Trumpeter 1/350 scale FLETCHER kits have accuracy and "missing" parts problems (No flag bags? Really!!), but the Trumpeter kit is better suited to modifying to a post WWII FLETCHER. There are differences between the Round-Bridge and Square-Bridge FLETCHERS deckhouses. You do need to get a replacement bridge on the Trumpeter kit to be accurate. Trumpeter got the shape of the open navigation bridge wrong. Model Monkey has a nice replacement bridge. USS TWINING was built by Bethlehem-San Francisco Yard, and the Bethlehem bridge version is the best option for you. The location of the door to the bridge "latrine" was changed to make it easier for the crew to access while on watch. The only external difference between the two types of bridges he offers, is the placement of one door.

I would recommend getting 3-D printed 5-in mounts from Model Monkey as well or from Black Cat to replace the kit mounts. Black Cat mounts are quite a bit more expensive, but you can get them with the gun captain's hoods. If you think you can scratch make those or don't want to go to that trouble, then Model Monkey mounts would work for you. That is a question we should have asked from you as well, how skilled are you at model building? Somethings can be scratch made, or may need to be scratch made for a 1953 version. Model Monkey doesn't have the post-WWII windscreen or overhead seen on Post-WWII FLETCHER "formerly" open Navigation Bridge. This would likely need to be scratch made.

For the 40-mm mounts, I would go for Black Cat 3-D printed mounts. They are beautiful and require little assemble to install. You do have to be careful getting them free from the support frame, but once you catch on, it is easy. There are other 40-mm mounts out there, but many are a bear to assemble. The waist quad 40-mm bulwarks ("tubs") are rather plain on the Trumpeter kit, you may consider getting the ones that Model Monkey makes. The aft twin 40-mm mount "tub" that comes with the Trumpeter kit is the wrong type. Starship Bob makes an accurate replacement. To be accurate, there are some unique features that need to be added to the deckhouse under the aft tub, that you can see in the images I posted earlier.

Black Cat also makes most of the bridge and deck details either lacking completely on the Trumpeter (and Tamiya) kit or poorly made by them. You will need Flag Bags, a Boat Winch, I would get Black Cat's 5-in Practice Loader it is beautiful, the various Open Bridge equipment, late war Mk 51 directors used with the Mk 63 GFCS, etc. The USN was still using floater rafts in 1953, you may be able to use the kit ones or can order them from one of the 3-D printers vendors.

There are photo etch radar antennas out there for SPS-6 radar (I think), but I don't think there is a PE version of the upgraded SG-1B radar antenna. Maybe Black Cat will make a 3-D printed SPS-6 and upgraded post-WWII SG-1B antenna. :big_grin:

Since you mention having problems with the Mk 10/11 Hedgehogs Platform, here is an overhead view of the bridge and midships deckhouse area, that you will need to do most of your mod work on. This image is a camera shot I took of a Booklet Of General Plans (BGP) for USS TWINING dating from 1968 at NARA. But, in general not much change was experienced in this are between 1953 and 1968. This view gives you the shape of the hedgehog platforms (the USN modified the former twin 40-mm mount platforms for the hedgehogs installation), the layout and size of the Unit Commanders Cabin, the location of the tripod legs, and other details. If you need images of other areas, let me know and I can try to get them for you.

Image


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:46 am 
Of course Mr. Davis you mean Twining, not Twinning.
One thing I found was a picture of CV-41 Midway in underway repo with an aux ship and DD 540, which I used for my Midway build posted on FSM. Just interesting because CV 41 was never really in combat until Vietnam.
Another small detail. it's hard to see where the gun captains hatches were on the 5" guns on Midway. The explanation of the USN having to sort of balance out the distribution makes sense to me.
I guessed.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:47 am 
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Of course, I have typed the wrong spelling multiple times in the past (including my Square-Bridge Fletcher book :huh: ). I can't stop my finger. Fixed it.

I'm not sure if you are talking about the Gun Captain Hatches/Hoods on USS MIDWAY or USS TWINING? I don't have problems seeing the hoods on any of the USS MIDWAY photos I have.

USS MIDWAY started her deployment transfer to the Pacific from the Atlantic with around the world cruise. Also, the USN rebalanced/reassigned several Destroyer Squadrons at about the same time frame so that there wee about equal numbers of FLETCHERS and SUMNER/GEARINGS in each ocean.

DANFS entry;

Midway cleared Norfolk on 27 December 1954, two days after Christmas, for a world cruise, sailing via the Cape of Good Hope for Taiwan, where she joined the Seventh Fleet for operations in the western Pacific until 28 June 1955 when she sailed for Bremerton, Wash., and overhaul at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. There she lay out of commission until 30 September 1957 while she was modernized and received such new innovations as an enclosed bow and an angled flight deck.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:22 pm 
Good morning. I was referring to Midway as far as the hoods. I had tried to make sense of left vs. right versus placement and general direction on the ship. Failed at that.

I'd be interested in the information about the funnel cross sections of Fletcher DDs.

One other thing which is kind of off-topic here so I won't belabor it. Midway had her bow enclosed in at least one photo I've seen, at some time prior to the first angle deck modification.

Back to Fletchers, can you steer me towards a source of more photos than Navsource of DD 560 Morrison?

Thank you,

Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Bill,

The post I made just before your post shows the typical cross-section of a FLETCHER destroyer STACK ... rounded front and rear and a flat section in between. Nicely blended without any sharp demarcation between the surfaces.

Attachment:
zdwgDD540x7crop2.jpg
zdwgDD540x7crop2.jpg [ 193.14 KiB | Viewed 245 times ]


Although outside of the scope of this thread on FLETCHERS, the images I have of USS MIDWAY prior to her yard period at PSNSY in 1955-57, one dated in 1954 and one dated in 1955, show that USS MIDWAY had yet to have an enclosed bow. Maybe you were looking at an image of one of her sisters miss-identified as USS MIDWAY or an image only showing her bow and dated wrong??

Image

There are many photos of USS MORRISON, most (a sequence of seven images) dating to after her February 1945, overhaul at Hunter's Point Navy Yard, can be located at NARA, College Park, MD. Also, there is one nice view of USS MORRISON taken in a photo dated in July 1945. (A similar view to this one is available at NHHC website, but the antennas have been censored out)

Image

Although outside of the scope of this thread on FLETCHERS, I took some time and looked at images of USS MIDWAY noting her Gun Captain hoods. In all cases but one (where I couldn't see a hood) the Gun Captain's position was on the "outboard" side of the normal direction of their "stowed" position on the ship.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:10 pm 
Thank you for the Morrison links. Very helpful. Your Midway photo I think correlates with this one. It seems they closed the bow but left the 3" guns out there.
https://media.fotki.com/2v2HhEninxAhjes.jpg

Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:20 pm 
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Technically that wasn't an "enclosed" bow. The USN started to enclose the area under the forward flight deck on this class in about 1949. The Fully Enclosed Bow and deck extension was done as part of the SCB-110 upgrade. I have a photo of USS CORAL SEA with the "Semi-Enclosed" Bow dated in May 1949. Plus this view of USS MIDWAY with the modification in December 1952. When she had that mod done I don't know, I don't research carriers in detail. It would be better to ask MIDWAY class questions in the Calling All MIDWAY class Fans thread.

Image


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