The Ship Model Forum

Kevin...Great job so far....I'm almost finished with mine.. only 24 more depth charges to go! I wimped out and did a 1943 Fletcher, I did manage to scratch the after 40mm tub..so far I just can't figure out how to post pics..all the instructions give just don't seem to work..user error I'm sure! But I'll keep trying...Regards..Doug B

The eaisest way is to use an off site photo storage site. I use Jaylatch photo. Once you upload the photos usually there will be a drop down box that will allow you to copy the url. Then just paste that into your thread and poof it's there. LOL although my computer skills are less than my scratchbuilding skills!!!!!

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On the Table - 1/350 USS Arizona

In the Stack - 1/700 Titanic

I understand...I use Photobucket..and they have changed some things...where did you get the ready ammo lockers..I used the Nautilus ones..but yours are so much nicer. I did mine in Ms 21 for the 1943 Solomon Islands Campaign..I'm real happy with it ,so far...first ship model I've built since the 70's... sure have learned alot at this site...Doug B

An update to a discussion quite sometime ago in this thread about the location of the sonar on FLETCHER class destroyers based on what I have found out in my research at NARA. This isn't going to be exhaustive or answer questions for specific FLETCHERS, but shows in general and when specific sonar types were installed on FLETCHERS.

When FLETCHERS were designed and construction started they were intended to have THREE sound systems: a look down depth finding sonar (echo-sounding), and TWO search sonars operating in TWO different frequencies.

The basic installation for the search sonars were to be side by side at frame 25 on either side of the keel. The initial design had no domes, but then fixed domes were added over the projectors. This is what confused me from the BIW drawings, they only showed one side and said the other side was similar, but most records only mentioned one system. The depth-finding system was installed on the starboard side further aft at about frame 52-53.

Sonar projector sea chest.


Depth finding sea chest.


This overhead view shows where the three sound systems were located. The first few FLETCHER indeed had both search sonars installed. However, production of sonars couldn't keep up with demand with 100s of DEs being built besides all the other units designed to get sonar equipment, so it was decided to reduce the number of sonars to one on each new built fleet destroyers. One of the two sonars was ordered removed ... initially they said "pick one" ... either the starboard or port unit. However, it was eventually decided to "standardize" to installing the sonar on the portside since the "echo-sounding" (depth finder) was installed on the starboard side to reduce interference. It was hoped to at some point to go back to installing the second sonar, so installation of both sea chests continued on all construction.



In mid-1944 it was decided to install a new retractable sonar system, either QHB or QJB. Many FLETCHERS overhauled late in 1944 and into 1945 had this new sonar installed at about frame 25 ... the same location as before ... but on the centerline in a new sea chest built as part of the keel. This system was huge compared to the earlier sonar systems.





By the time FLETCHERS were recommissioned for the Korean War, the retractable sonar was considered obsolete and a new fixed sonar was installed ... eventually re-nomenclatured to SQS-10 ... in the same location at frame 25.



In the mid-1950s, about 1953-56, many FLETCHERS had the SQS-10 replaced with the newer SQS-4 sonar. This sonar was located at about frame 53. On some FLETCHERS the SQS-4 was installed in the forward location. Really confusing looking at Booklet of General Plans.

Docking plan for HAZELWOOD (DD-531) in 1953




PRESTON (DD-795)


Hopefully this helps to explain what really is a pretty confusing story. Sonars don't show up in photos often and as can be seen here, the systems did change over time.

@ Dan, The lockers came from the G-Force 40mm guns. I also received the Nautilus ones and wasn't impressed at all, just a box with no details at all.

@Rick, you Sir are a blessing, and I as well as others on here really appriciate all the work you do reshearching and answering all the questions. Thank you

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On the Table - 1/350 USS Arizona

In the Stack - 1/700 Titanic

For Fletcher, the drawings I see show a hard edged camoflage, but the photos posted by Rick Davis show what appears to me to be a soft edge.

Does anyone have a tie breaker on this that makes sense? I was all set making hard edged masks in my mind, but it looks like I am getting ahead of myself.

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On the Bench-

FIRST Ship Model, 1/350 Tamiya Fletcher, GMM PE, Alliance Resin Turrets. Keel scheduled to go down 2/2012

FLETCHER's camo scheme was spray painted on and they didn't use any real masking to separate the demarcation line. At any distance, it looked like a sharp demarcation. So it depends on your definition of "hard-edge". The scale of the model will decide if it looked sharp or soft in that scale. It certainly wasn't "blended" as seen on some camo schemes. One thing you can try (off model first) is to lift the mask off the model surface some (put some tape on the inside of the mask against the surface and away from the mask edge) to allow some over spray. You can see if you like that look. Depending on the mask, you may get some soft edge effect anyway.

Rick, this photo of the LAWS, looks like the aft 40mm tub isn't a teardrop one. Did those tubs get replaced at some point from the teardrop to the Mare Island type?



BTW fixing the Mk37 mount

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On the Table - 1/350 USS Arizona

In the Stack - 1/700 Titanic

To answer your questions, yes some FLETCHERS received the "Mare Island Style Tub" after having been built with the standard "Teardrop" shaped tub. Normally this happened after major repairs or on several units upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze mod late in the war. But the change was always done during a major overhaul at Mare Island ... it wasn't a field mod. But, LAWS wasn't one of them, she and JOHNSTON didn't have a major overhaul during WWII ... JOHNSTON was lost first and WATTS wasn't overhauled until after the war in prep for mothballing.

The distant view I posted wasn't very clear in this area. I don't have a nice overhead view of LAWS that clearly shows the shape of the tub. Part of the problem in seeing the tub shape on the aft deckhouse was the location of the floater net baskets. On some FLETCHERS they stored floater nets in the "corners" atop the aft deckhouse outside of the teardrop shaped tub created by the small bulwarks built-up following the edge of the deckhouse. But on LAWS and JOHNSTON, they installed floater net baskets on the outer edge of the deckhouse. Here are two images of LAWS in February 1944 and post-WWII in 1952, both show the teardrop shape. And a close-up view of a sister, MORRISON (DD-560) after an overhaul period in early February 1945 (when they added an ESM mainmast), showing the construction of the floater net basket.

As an aside, this was a strange design in that the gun crew had to climb up the deckhouse side, step into the small area outside the "tub", then climb over the 40-in tall bulwark around the tub to get to the mount. I have noted on some FLETCHERS, that openings were cut in the bulwark around the 40-mm mount to easy access. It doesn't seem to have been authorized by BuShips, since the vast majority of FLETCHERS didn't get that done, but likely was done by the ship's crew.

Thanks Rick, that really makes sense now.

Here is an update of the 40mm guns minus the sights and the flat clear coat



Here is the fixed Mk37 Director


Here is about 1/2 the crew in different phases of painting



All these parts... told you I have model ADD

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On the Table - 1/350 USS Arizona

In the Stack - 1/700 Titanic

Rick

I want to build the KIDD as see appeared in August 1945. In regards to sonar would see have been fitted with the retractable QJB by that time? Is so do you have any photos that show what the hull would look like with the sonar in the retracted position?

Thank you.

Travis

Travis,

I don't have specific information on KIDD (photos or textual records) to confirm it, but every FLETCHER file (Departure Reports from major yard periods) I have checked from late in 1944 through the end of the war, the sonar was updated to one of two retractable types ... QJB/QGB. As far as I can tell they were similar ... if not the same ... in size with different operating frequencies. So I'm pretty sure that KIDD was updated to the retractable type. It would have been replaced again during her post-war service, so what is on her today isn't what was on her in August 1945.

As for photos, I have exactly ONE photo of a FLETCHER from this era showing where the sonar should be. For whatever reason, wartime views of the sonar domes on destroyers are very rare. I suspect the USN considered them classified higher than the typical "Restricted/Confidential" classifications. When I scanned this drydock view initially, I was disappointed to NOT see a sonar dome. But, that was before I knew about retractable domes on the class. I believe that we can just barely see the bottom of the sonar dome retracted in this view at the break in the keel docking resting blocks. Actually, one of the reasons they wanted retractable domes was for drydocking and entering ports ... many domes were being damaged from hitting "stuff" entering ports.

Photo of GATLING (DD-671) in drydock post conversion to the anti-kamikaze mod. It was unusual for the yard modification completion photos to be taken while the ship was in drydock. It looks like she has a leak from a fuel tank that needs repaired.

So I guess photos from under the ship in drydock would be almost impossible to find. Would you know if the dome seals up flush with the hull or is there a hole?

Travis

The only photos I have come across that look up at the bottom of a FLETCHER were post war and not of this sonar dome. I would dearly like to find a set of photos of the various sonar installations used on this class in WWII. I didn't get into the fact that the USN tried different fixed dome styles early in the war ... at this point I have no idea of what each type even looked like.

I would guess that the sea chest would be flush with the bottom of the ship fore and aft where it meets the keel. If the sea chest bottom remains flat all the way around, that would mean that it flares out from the ship on both sides. Once retracted the dome may or may not protrude slightly from the bottom of the sea chest from looking at the drawings I posted above. I simply don't have accurate drawings with dimensions beyond what I posted above. It appears from those drawings that the dome is about 63 inches long (three frames), about 22 inches wide, and extends about 42 inches below the keel. It is more or less teardrop shaped with the pointed end aft. The sea chest is a few inches thick all around the dome ... 4-6 inches is a guess. Sorry, that is the best I can do.

To give you a "rough" idea of what a sonar dome would look like in this location. Here is a view of a fixed SQS-10 (formerly called QHB) dome on USS SHIELDS in 1954. I can't tell you if the QGB/QJB dome is larger or smaller. But this gives you an idea of just how far out the sea chest would look on each side. You would have to visualize what a similar sized retractable dome would look like "retracted" up into the ship. This photo is looking forward towards the bow ... it is pretty narrow at frame 25.

Rick

Thank you for your help. The information will help a great deal. It is nice to have a place to ask questions about all aspects of these ships.

Thanks

Travis

It wasn't until this last summer that I could answer some of the sonar questions about the FLETCHERS.

Before that all I could say was "I don't know" ...

I just found this thread and saw all the great detail pics Rick has found and posted for modelers.I'm building 1/350 USS INGERSOLL,DD652 Fletchers for '43,'52 &'65 versions and would appreciate any and all detail pics I can get for the INGERSOLL.Help ???
Thanks

I have several photos of INGERSOLL (DD-652) in the 1950s but only a couple of her in WWII and only one in the 1960s.

INGERSOLL was built by Bath Iron Works, and there is a DVD available with all the Engineering Drawings for versions of FLETCHERS built by BIW. Destroyer History Organization has it for sale ($30.00) ... http://destroyerhistory.org/destroyers/store/ ... the DVD is a little hard to navigate, but is packed with good information. This would give you all you should need for the WWII version of INGERSOLL, particularly if you want an "as commissioned" configuration. During the 1950s she had a series of mods/upgrades done to sensors and ASW weapons.

Here are some of the better photos I have in or close to the years you listed.

INGERSOLL shortly after the war ended in December 1945, she had not been modified to the Anti-Kamikaze mod and appears to be close to the configuration she was built to. The only upgrade she had was her Mk 4 radar on the Mk 37 director was replaced with a Mk 12/22 radar.


INGERSOLL at Charleston Navy Yard after conversion to the 4-Gun upgrade on 13 March 1952. She had a SR air search radar at this point, she had this replaced by an SPS-6 radar in about 1954. The SG radar surface search radar was replaced by a SPS-10 in 1955-56.


INGERSOLL on 22 October 1966 in her last configuration.

Hi Everyone,
I’m new to the group. I know that most of you guys don’t like the Lindberg Fletcher, but that’s what I’m building. I’m doing a lot of scratch building to correct as many of the kit flaws that I’m capable of. I am using Tom’s PE, HR products guns, and props made by Gordon Briggs. I found Gordon on Warship Models Underway; he built the USS Radford DD-446 in ¼ scale and what an amazing job he did on her. He makes props in many sizes and his prices are great. You can see his props at WMU in the for sale section at the top of the page. Anyone needing props can E-mail him at huk_king_dd446@jahoo.com he can make 1/48, 1/96, 1/125, and smaller.

My Fletcher is the USS Haggard DD-555. I chose her because she was almost sunk by kamikaze on my birthday 15 years before I was born. I only have one good picture of DD-555, it’s a starboard bow shot and she is traveling at about a 45 degree angle toward the camera. I have searched online and I can’t find any broad side or stern pictures. Does anybody have any pic’s of the Haggard?

From the photo I can see that the front and midship 40mm mounts are rounded, they don’t have a flat like many Fletchers have. The 40mm mount between 53 and 54 I’m unable to determine the shape. I finally decided to look at her sister ships that came out of the Tacoma Washington Shipyard and I found a couple of great stern and maybe one broad side view: they all had the tear drop shape mount. I know it’s never good to assume, but that’s the best I can come up with unless someone has a better picture of the Haggard. I will post some pictures of my build soon.

Roger

Hi Everyone,
The last post I made I was looking for a few pictures and when I submited it I was loged out. Well anyway hese are a few of the Haggards sister ships to back up my assumption that DD-555 had a tear drop aft 40mm mount. And once again, if anyone has any more good pictures of the Haggard could you please post them.

Thanks Roger