Rick E Davis wrote:I can not make out from your picture ... with my poor eyesight and no clue how I can blow up this photo ... did you use D/C racks or the "post" (Depth Charge on a stick :-}) storage method?? The Fletcher didn't get the standard racks, actually the double capacity version ( ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0544518.jpg ... of course you will need to cut and paste this link to view ), until her July/Aug 1943 upgrade to the 5 twin 40mm standard the best I know.
Rick,
Thanks for the comments. As I was gluing the racks into place, I remembered that I had seen a picture of the Fletcher in June '42 without them, then wondered if I should leave them off. So, what you are saying is she never had them until her 1943 refit, when she got the double sized racks?
Well...I can always take them off and touch up the deck...
Martin
"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne
Yes I goofed on the Spence. I have it right in my spreadsheet, but when I looked at the DESRON database I have, I just listed these ships without a close look. I generally figure that any ship that had the 6-40mm standard for 6 months or so (too much time for training), had gone to the Pacific already. Checking DANFS, it seems Spence was one of the Fletcher's that did one tour as a convoy escort, configured as a 6-40mm version, in the Altantic before going to the Pacific. She stopped off at a West Coast yard (Hunters Point NY) and was updated to the 10-40mm standard in July 1943.
By the way, I pulled out one of my old Skywave Fletcher kits (SW-01) and the Callaghan (W-1) kits from my stash. It isn't as straight forward as I detailed earlier. The earlier kit has the smaller 20mm tubs in front of the bridge, but the instruction sheet shows twin 40mm guns are to be put there. The plan on the outside of the box shows 20mm guns installed ... go figure. But, the instructions have several errors and I wouldn't pay much attention to them. The bridge looks like it is configured for the Mk-51 directors ... but those can be removed without much effort and a 20mm added to the top of the Bridge. Then the W-1 kit has the twin 40mm tubs in front of the bridge, but they also include the elevated centerline tub for a single 20mm gun ... the instructions show one option to install 20mm guns there. The earlier kit does NOT have the centerline elevated 20mm tub as one of the included parts. But that wouldn't be too hard to make.
Martin,
Sorry. As best I know the Fletcher didn't change the D/C racks until the July/August refit. The best picture of the Fletcher during this period ... dated 26 March 1943 ... http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... h53916.jpg ... at Purvis Bay, shows her with the original "post" style D/C storage and cranes. Actually, I had not paid much attention before, but the Fletcher got the double storage rack earlier than I thought they started to appear.
Again, thanks much Rick. I also looked over my Skywave kit again today and noticed the pilot house roof was in the configuration to hold the Mk 51 directors, so it looks like I'm in for some surgery no matter what ship I go with. And mine didn't come with an instruction sheet so I don't have to worry about that, but I'm a bit confused about your comment regarding the 'centerline elevated 20mm tub' being missing from the early kit. I looked over some photos and drawings and cant' seem to find exactly where this tub would be located.
Sorry. As best I know the Fletcher didn't change the D/C racks until the July/August refit. The best picture of the Fletcher during this period ... dated 26 March 1943 ... http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... h53916.jpg ... at Purvis Bay, shows her with the original "post" style D/C storage and cranes. Actually, I had not paid much attention before, but the Fletcher got the double storage rack earlier than I thought they started to appear.
Oh yeah...look at that. I noticed it for the first time, too. Thanks...I'll probably take the PE parts off and put the kit parts back on.
Martin
"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne
Pete ... I picked this photo of the Halford because I already had it in my Photobucket account ... it shows the locations for the 4-20mm guns installed before and on the bridge on a typicial Round Bridge Fletcher. The rest of the Halford isn't typicial ... but his area is. You can see the centerline elevated tub directly in front of the bridge. These tubs varied in shape. This photo of the Ausburne on the NHC website is about the clearest view of the bridge area showing the tub that I could find ... http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... n41529.jpg ... looks to be close except w/o the external ribs.
Thanks again Rick, thats exactly what I needed. The only clear pics of that area of the ship I could find were taken after the 40's were installed and that tub was removed. BTW I found a Callaghan kit on E-Bay and figured that for 9 bucks it would be easier to use the bridge parts from it than do surgery on the early kit.
I just got in the mail today the "Fletcher class Destroyer Engineering Drawings - Bath Iron Works" DVD I ordered from the Destroyer History Foundation ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/destroyers/store.html ...
If you want to build a Fletcher class destroyer at any scale ... up to FULL SCALE ... then you will want this disk. At $30.00, it isn't cheap, but well worth it. The disk has the Drawings for the Fletcher's that BIW built, which span from the USS Nicholas, O'Bannon, and Chevalier with the original quad 1.1" to the final units completed with 5 twin 40mm guns. I have not gotten through all of it (I kept hitting print!!!), but it looks like everything you would like to know on WWII built Fletchers by this yard is there. Scanned from the Archives Plans ... just great.
In some of the postings, there is reference to the 1945 neutral grey camouflage measures.
When I wrote the "Development of Naval Camouflage 1914-45", I negleted to include in the list of USN camouflage measures; Measure 12, 1945 revised. Not to be confused with measure 12 1945. In the former design, the line of the dark grey followed the sheer line of the main deck and DID NOT run parallel to the waterline.
Measure 12 1945 Revised came into use at the very end of hostilities and can be seen on some vessels in the latter months of 1945.
I believe that this is the very first mention outside of official documents, and may be of some small use.
Rick E Davis wrote:I just got in the mail today the "Fletcher class Destroyer Engineering Drawings - Bath Iron Works" DVD I ordered from the Destroyer History Foundation ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/destroyers/store.html ...
If you want to build a Fletcher class destroyer at any scale ... up to FULL SCALE ... then you will want this disk. At $30.00, it isn't cheap, but well worth it. The disk has the Drawings for the Fletcher's that BIW built, which span from the USS Nicholas, O'Bannon, and Chevalier with the original quad 1.1" to the final units completed with 5 twin 40mm guns. I have not gotten through all of it (I kept hitting print!!!), but it looks like everything you would like to know on WWII built Fletchers by this yard is there. Scanned from the Archives Plans ... just great.
Hi Guys,
Progress on my 1/350 Renshaw has almost come to a stop. Life just keeps getting in the way! I'll get back to her ASAP!
Martin,
Your DD's of late will prove to inspire other DD Fans!
Avery,
Your Pringle looks very good!
I recently got a parcel from L'Arsenal.
Here are some of L'Arsenal's latest offerings.......for the Fletcher Fans eyes!
The Sullivans 1/350 set...not the best macro camera, I'm afraid...
The 20mm twins and some other very nice stuff...the twin 20's have resin barrels!
Some more items....to see...........the 1/350 GMC's are unreal!
I'm going to work on my DD499 this morning..at least for an hour!
Be well my friends, Tony B
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"
DIBBER27 wrote:
Ron I got the 5-O because I saw on shipcamoflage.com that she was in MS-14 after MS-12. Just wanted to be ready what ever color I went with.I did think it was intresting that the artwork on the cover showed the 3 20MM on the stern.
Makes sense. Do be aware there are some errors in the database that Tracy is fixing as time and research allows. It's still the best resource we currently have and is a great place to start. It is mostly correct though. Randy, Tracy and myself among others are working to check it and Tracy does the fixes to the actual database. I have to send him corrections for BB-55 and the Somers class Since I can nail most of those to the month they changed.
So guys the correct answer is MS21 (with 5N) for O'Bannon during the Nov 1942 battle? Even though the shipcamouflage.com says MS-14?
Thanks, Jamie
ar wrote:In some of the postings, there is reference to the 1945 neutral grey camouflage measures.
When I wrote the "Development of Naval Camouflage 1914-45", I negleted to include in the list of USN camouflage measures; Measure 12, 1945 revised. Not to be confused with measure 12 1945. In the former design, the line of the dark grey followed the sheer line of the main deck and DID NOT run parallel to the waterline.
Measure 12 1945 Revised came into use at the very end of hostilities and can be seen on some vessels in the latter months of 1945.
I believe that this is the very first mention outside of official documents, and may be of some small use.
I missed this the first time you posted it AR.... do you have an approximate date for this? I presume it is some months after the February 1945 document I posted online?
I pased on all my documents to the person writing a major volume on the subject of USN camouflage, and therefore have to trawl through my memory.
I believe the order was issued in August 1945, and it shows up on some vessels soon after.
Tracy White wrote:
ar wrote:In some of the postings, there is reference to the 1945 neutral grey camouflage measures.
When I wrote the "Development of Naval Camouflage 1914-45", I negleted to include in the list of USN camouflage measures; Measure 12, 1945 revised. Not to be confused with measure 12 1945. In the former design, the line of the dark grey followed the sheer line of the main deck and DID NOT run parallel to the waterline.
Measure 12 1945 Revised came into use at the very end of hostilities and can be seen on some vessels in the latter months of 1945.
I believe that this is the very first mention outside of official documents, and may be of some small use.
I missed this the first time you posted it AR.... do you have an approximate date for this? I presume it is some months after the February 1945 document I posted online?
Hey gang. I was wondering if there was a list of Fletcher class ships that kept the round bridge through the war anywhere. I'm hopefully getting the Tamiya kit and I want to depict a ship of the class with a dazzle camouflage scheme. I can do the small modifications like new gun positions, but I don't think my scratch building skills are good enough to build a whole new bridge. Thanks!
Hi Guys,
Abram,
My advice to you, "start hitting Navsource..........heavily".
Here's a suggestion. Go to Navsource to identify all of the Fletcher Class, "gun DD's". Start at DD445, but watch out..I think the Benson Class are mixed in with the Fletcher's.
Next: Go to shipcamouflage.com and look up Fletcher, (now that you know all of their hull numbers),DD's and their corresponding paint measures. If you're already familiar with the, "dazzle", type of paint schemes..eg Ms32, Ms33 etc, then you're only a time ot two away from finding a Fletcher DD/its' paint scheme...then go to navsource to ID that particular ship as either being Round Bridge or Sq Bridge.
Not too tough, but potentially time consuming. You're still a teenager right?
I hope you still have lots of time to study ships and build models!
Get some!
Tony
ps pay attention to the AA fit per ship...at the very least
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"
Hey all again. With this scheme here: Ms31/2C It calls for 5-H, 5-O, and Black. Was 5-H really used or was 5-L used? I'll be building USS Spence and the two photos of her in this scheme it looks like 5-L, but I could be wrong. Thanks
Since you have picked out the Spence to model and at the time period when she wore a dazzle camo scheme, you may want to get both the Tamiya kit and the Trumpeter Fletcher kits and do some bashing. I'm assuming that you want to build the 1/350 version. The Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher kit lacks the parts for a 10-40mm (five twin 40mm) Round Bridge version. The Trumpeter has the parts for a mid-war 10-40mm and the late-war 14-40mm versions, but is a square bridge unit. It is possible to take the 10-40mm parts from the Trumpeter kit, use it on the round bridge Tamiya kit. The great thing is you still will be able to build the square bridge 14-40mm with the left over parts. The 5" turrets on the Tamiya kit are undersized and you may want to get some after-market resin guns as replacements. There are better after-market 40mm and 20mm guns as well.
Well, I went ahead and bought both kits, Tamiya and Trumpeter kits. I'll be using some structural parts from the Trumpeter kit to convert the Tamiya kit, and then building the Trumpeter kit as another ship (time to do a new search!!) Thanks for the help guys.
>Edit, doing some looking, is the only camouflage used on ships with the quad 40mm guns amidships the Ms22 camouflage? Thanks<
I'm not the Camo expert, but by the time the Anti-Kamikaze mod came to be in mid-1945, the only two Camo schemes authorized were Ms-21 and Ms-22. I have seen both used on these ships (suppose to be that odd number DesRon's got one and even number got the other ... for some reason it looks like Ms-22 was used more often? DesRon's were being reorganized in late WWII because of all the losses earlier that year may have played a roll), no dazzle patterns were used. Look further up this string for info about the change in the paints used for Ms-21/22 in 1945 from blues to grays. I forgot to mention that the Trumpeter kit didn't include the twin 20mm guns needed for an accurate 14-40mm, 12-20mm Anti-Kamikaze Mod Fletcher. Also, the 40mm tub shape between #3 and #4 5"/38cal guns, is only accurate for some ships ... look at pictures to see the difference. Good thing is that Trumpeter has two of these in the kit. If you want it I can give you the list of about 50 Fletcher's that got the Anti-Kamikaze Mod.
Rick, I'd appreciate any help you can offer for this project! In the last AA fit were all 20mm guns dual or just some of them? I'll be getting L'arsenal replacements for everything I can. Thanks again.
... then you will want this disk. At $30.00, it isn't cheap, but well worth it. The disk has the Drawings for the Fletcher's that BIW built, which span from the USS Nicholas, O'Bannon, and Chevalier with the original quad 1.1" to the final units completed with 5 twin 40mm guns. I have not gotten through all of it (I kept hitting print!!!), but it looks like everything you would like to know on WWII built Fletchers by this yard is there. Scanned from the Archives Plans ... just great.
