The Ship Model Forum

Rick - Thank you for the quick reply. I love the look of dazzle camouflage schemes but I'll leave that for another time and kit (e.g. Dragon's BENSON). So the JENKINS circa late 1943 sounds like the way to go. The faded MS 21 scheme will give me all sorts of room to play from a weathering perspective and I think I can handle the modifications. A couple more questions if you don't mind:

1. Do you have additional views of JENKINS that might show the areas I will need to modify?
2. Would you guess that the 51 mount has a canvas cover over the barrel? The color matches the bloomer and I don't see primer anywhere else.

Thanks again for your help.

Unfortunately there are not many photos of JENKINS in this configuration ... particularly no yard views. This view is an excellent view for the key areas that differ from sisters anyway. Many of her other configuration details can be seen in as completed views before the fantail twin 40-mm mount was installed. However, other sisters in a similar configuration (but without the elevated platform before the bridge for a 20-mm gun) can be seen for USS FLETCHER (DD-445) and La VALLETTE (DD-448) showing the fantail twin 40-mm mount installation.

As for the canvas at the end of the barrel ... I think it is canvas ... a practice was to put canvas covers over the barrel ends if water likely could enter. Once the gun was fired, the cover was "broken", until replaced. Saltwater in the gun down to the breech isn't a good thing. Bloomers were painted canvas when installed at yards. After they wore out at sea, the ship's crew would replace the bloomer with unpainted canvas from ship stocks ... which they may or may not paint.

There is a small profile in the book, "USS Kidd On Deck" showing her in splinter camouflage. That profile, however, shows the 10 40 MM gun configuration, because the forward 20 MM gun tub in front of the bridge is not shown. However, a picture taken at Mare Island on February 8, 1945 shows her in Measure 22. It also shows her in the 10 40 MM configuration, as does a photo taken just after the April 11, 1945 Kamikaze strike. So it appears that she did not get her present 16 40 MM configuration until the repairs to the Kamikaze damage were done at Hunters Point which were completed in August 1945, for her brief service prior to the end of the war.

Thanks, Rick, for clearing up the timeframe for her upgrades, as until I saw your photo I was under the impression that she had been upgraded to 10 40MM guns much earlier.

PeeJay

I gave David Boyle a raspberry for selecting the wrong illustration for the camo diagram.

It was ironic that USS KIDD was overhauled and no sooner returned to the war than she is damaged and returns to the West Coast again.

Is the anchor layout pretty much the same across the Fletcher class? I was going to try a 1/350 Trumpy Sullivans DD-537. I made a resin casting of the Tamiya's kit deck details and was going to sand off the the Trumpeter detail.



Would that be the correct layout? Does rope or cable hold the the chains where they go past the attachment points to keep them in place?

Thanks,
Jim

I'm not aware of any changes to the anchor chains or machinery layout for the FLETCHER Class. Never really looked, but should actually be the same for the follow-on SUMNER and GEARING classes as well.

I'm not sure what you are asking about at the bottom. The stoppers were chains I think.

Here is a photo of FLETCHER on 13 August 1943.




And here is a photo of USS UHLMANN (DD-687) on 2 March 1969




It doesn't look like there was much change.

And for good measure a close-up of a GEARING.

Many thanks, your pictures cleared everything up for me. It was the spray covers (?) over area where the chains go into the hull that was confusing me.



Thought this was a nice shot of the front castings.

The MK 9 Depth Charge Mk 9 and Modifications Ordnance Pamphlet on the HNSA site is dated 12 February, 1944. Would these be the only depth charges in use on the Fletchers by spring, 1945, or might there still be older depth charges on board?

PeeJay

_________________
So many ships to model and so little time . . . .

I believe that some destroyers would still be carrying the older depth charges. The drop tracks at least needed some modifications in order to drop the newer depth charges. So, destroyers that had not yet returned for an overhaul likely still carried the older charges.

Thank you, Rick. I am specifically interested in the USS Valkenburgh at the time of the photos you posted on this forum (page 63), which was February of 1945. At that time she was still in a measure 31 camouflage pattern.

I believe there has been discussion on these forums regarding the splinter camouflage being painted out during overhauls in favor of Measure 22, so it appears that since she had not yet undergone an overhaul, it would be appropriate to use the older depth charges in the rear drop and storage racks, and, depending on my ability to model the Mark 9's, some Mark 9's on the side launchers and their storage racks.

PeeJay

_________________
So many ships to model and so little time . . . .

Many destroyers (likely other USN ships as well) painted over the dazzle scheme in the forward areas in early 1945. Sometimes while dry-docked in a floating drydock at a forward base, but at other times the crew just "got busy" going over the side and repainted on the CO's orders.

VAN VALKENBURGH had the newer depth charges, at least for the K-Guns, in those photos. I don't know if the drop tracks were modified or not. She was one of the last FLETCHERS completed in August 1944 and probably had the newer depth charges "mod" done before heading to the war zone. I can see the older charges being used with the K-Guns and in the drop tracks in an "as completed" photo. (see attached) However, during post-shakedown, they apparently modified the K-Gun Racks and loaded up with the newer depth charges. So for accuracy, the newer charges probably should be used. But, it really is up to you and frankly won't be that noticeable.

Hi there,
I am looking for a better image of the score chart of the USS Heermann.

Thanks!

Thanks again. All the pictures are really helpful. So long as I can make the fins, I think I can turn down the basic shape from plastic rod on a Dremel. It will be worth a try. A Mk 9 on a K gun might be more noticeable than one in the drop racks,and would be a nice detail.

PeeJay

_________________
So many ships to model and so little time . . . .

When going through the Destroyer History Foundation plan CD, I see that the depth charge racks for DD 650 and up have revised drawings. I suppose part of the revision may have been regarding placement of the racks, but some changes may have been to accommodate the newer depth charges.

PeeJay

I never looked at the drop track drawings in detail to see what changed between the earlier groups and DD-650+.

BIW had basically four versions of the FLETCHERS that they built;

1) The original with quad 1.1-in mount (DD-449 to 451)
2) The four 40-mm configuration (one twin on the fantail) (DD-467, 468, 469, 507 to 517)
3) The six 40-mm configuration (DD-629 to 631 and 642 to 644)
4) The ten 40-mm configuration (DD-650+)

I thought that the drop tracks for 3) and 4) would be basically the same. The roller racks were revised a few times to "refine" the design.

But I wouldn't be surprised that he drawings were revised.

Fighting Lights:

On the rigging plans for the DD 650 & subsequent ships, there is a set of fighting lights on the aft port and starboard sides of the pilot house. I have not seen these in photographs of actual ships, but did see them in photos of a model of the USS Kidd. We're they actually installed in that location, or just planned to be installed there?

I have also seen them referred to as "formation lights," but I am not sure of their actual purpose. I assume they were used to communicate re position during radio silence.

PeeJay

"Fighting Lights" or "Formation Lights" were intended to allow the following (or abreast) ships to know where the guy ahead (beside) was. The lights were shielded from viewing in other aspects.

I believe these were located on all FLETCHERS at the bridge level to allow for setting the "angle-of-viewing" for the shutters on the lights.

Very nice YouTube video on McGowan DD678 during WWII at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _z0YDSUwp0

Some of the images appear to be of a Gearing or Sumner class.

Being on the lookout for images of WWII Fletcher Class squadron emblems, especially Destroyer Squadron 54, I found this section in the video of particular interest as it shows the "Red Devil" emblem in a style slightly different than others I have seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... wp0#t=238s

Can anyone identify the Fletcher shown at 4 minutes 30 seconds in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... wp0#t=271s

It is very difficult to see, but it appears that there may something painted on the support bulwark for the midship 40mm gun mount. Some (maybe all?) of the ships in Destroyer Squadron 54 carried a large red painted number in this location at the end of the war. I am interested to know if this is one of those ships with a number.

One last note, still images of this video can be viewed here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21952092@N ... 934697929/


Cheers,

Bill

I was browsing this thread for hours and I learned a lot thanks to all the people who were sharing their knowledge freely.
I am planning to build the USS Heermann (DD-532) in the later war configuration (August / October 1944) based on the 1/144 Revell kit.

According to my research, I found the following (so far):
The Real One:
Camouflage: Dazzle Camouflage Measure 32, Design 24D
Colors: black, light gray 5-L, ocean gray 5-O, deck blue 20-B
Vertical surfaces: pattern of deck blue & ocean gray
Horizontal surfaces: pattern of black, ocean gray & light gray

Armament: 5” Gun
5 x 5” Cal Gun Mound, main deck guns with 3 panel roof, all other with 2 panel roof
All Mark 30 18 Mounting (?)
#1,#3, #4 & #5 with blast shield, #2 without
All ladders on the side of gun house

40mm AA Gun
5 x twin 40 mm Bofors mount, water-cooled (?)

20mm AA Gun
7 x single 20 mm Oerlikon, with MK14 gun sight, with Pedestal Mount Mk 4 and safety rails on the fantail

Torpedo-Tubes
2 x 5 21” torpedo tubes, torpedo tube MK15 with blast shield MK1, torpedo tube MK14 without
All with single lever door type
1x retractable torpedo loading crane, one fixed, both starboard side

Depth Charges
MK9 “tear drop” depth charge
2 x Depth Charge Tracks with storage tracks, fantail
6 x K-guns with roller racks

Range finders / Gun Directors:
5” guns: MK 37 late war style, but without 22 Radar
40 mm guns: 5 x MK 51
2 x Bridge level
2 x 2nd stack-platform
1 x above aft 40mm gun ("tear-drop" splinter bulwark)
2 x Torpedo Directors MK27, Mod5 on Bridge level

Signal / Search-Lights
2 x 36” Search-Light, 1nd stack platform
2 x 12” Signal-Light, Bridge level
2x Lookout Chairs, Bridge level (?)
2 x Lookout Chairs, Director level

Superstructure:
Square Bridge
Heard-shaped splinter shield for 3 20mm AA guns fantail
Bow-section: 1x Brake Wheel, 1 x Control Switch

Rescue equipment
6 x oval life rafts
Floater baskets: 7x metal baskets
2x 1st stack
2x 2nd stack
2 x below #4 1x below gun #2
6 x Life-Ring with buoy, at bridge wings (1 x port & 1 x starboard), 1 x at aft deckhouse (?), 1 x Life Ring at port depth-charge release track (?), 1 x port, 1 x starboard below twin 40 mm gun (?). Color: Orange (????)
2 x 26’ Whaleboats, one with canvas spray shield & bell

Diverse
1 x magnetic compass on 2. Stack-platform
2 x Pelorus, bridge wings
1 x ship bell at mast
6 x recognition lights (fighting lights) red, green white
Mast: Jacobs Ladder 12’ 6.5” long, width 14”, 10 spaces x 12.5”, 0.56” steel wire, steps 1.25” diameter made out of wood (?)
Boat Boom on frame 68 ½ (close to Ford David): 26’ long, for two Jacobs Ladders, approx. 12’ 7” long

Any tips & suggestions as well as commends are desired & appreciated.
I am still in the planning & collecting phase because my Revell kit didn’t arrive yet.

Good luck with your HEERMANN build using the Revell 1/144 scale FLETCHER kit. If you start out realizing that you will be scratch-building and buying after-market items for most everything beyond the basic hull and deckhouses, then you may get there. Otherwise almost nothing else is valid for HEERMANN in this kit. Revell even messed up on the Mk 37 director ... they made a "taper-back" Mk 37 director for the kit (appropriate for BENSON-GLEAVES class NOT FLETCHER) instead of the proper "square-back" Mk 37 director for the kit.

You have several errors in your listings (aka like Mk 10 tripod mounts for single 20-mm guns, not Mk 24 mounts (those were twin 20-mm mounts), but I'm not sure she had Mk 10 mounts in August-October 1944 ... she likely didn't get them until January 1945 and the earlier cast solid mounts were Mk 4 not Mk 5 and the searchlights were 36-in not 37-in, she had the Mk 4 radar on the Mk 37 until receiving the Mk 12/22 radar set in January 1945, she had the standard "tear-drop" shaped bulwark for aft twin 40-mm mount (between 53 and 54 mounts) until January 1945, she had the same type of rafts on both port and starboard sides, plus other items)

Check closing reference photo dates.