The Ship Model Forum

Its interesting how 413's 20m tubs nearly meet up with the after deckhouses forward edge, while 417 's are set back aways; their searchlight locations are also different is I'm interpreting the photos correctly. It looks like there were variations even within ships modified by the same yard and at the same time.

Mr. Davis, you totally rock. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

Bob

I'm now calling this the, "Hughes - Russell After Deckhouse," because the pair look identical to me, apart from a few small ship specific doo dads. Russell's 20mm shields appear to lack the little "dip down" that Hughes' shields had and that are on the design, but a light touch with a sanding stick should solve that. As they were both refitted at the same yard, I'm hoping this makes sense and is accurate. Any final thoughts or observations before I order the test print and lock things in?





Bob

Query: in photo zDD417AftDeckhouse-5Jan42.jpg , what is that thing covered by a tarp in between the 5 inch mount and the 20mm tubs on the centerline?

Thanks,

Bob

PS. PotentialMaybePossible Morris aft deckhouse. This is a total rough draft that I did in about ten minutes by deleting the Hughes - Russel parts and just free drawing the tubs and steering station. I'm sure the proportions are off. The tub shields are about 3 mm tall, and the steering station about 4 mm tall. Suggestions on getting it better?

Pretty nice...and quick! Had to laugh about it as I have been working all day on my conversion of the aft deckhouse for Anderson. Using an unused gun tub in the Dragon Livermore kit as a size reference, I found that a 9mm cartridge case was a perfect donar for the project. Being a shooter and handloader, I have lots of 9mm brass on hand. Using a cutting wheel on my Dremel, I fairly quickly had two usable, perfectly round, brass gun tubs. I have them mated to the deckhouse in their appropriate place, and used plastic stock for the con station shield/floor and mounted it. I am using a Gold Medal Models Buchanan photoetch brass set for detailing, and have put in place the bracing tower for the searchlight mount base. I'm pretty pleased with its looks so far. Hopefully, I will be pretty far along on the rest of the ship when your stack and middle deckhouse arrives.

Nice job on the aft deckhouse CAD, Bob. I'm impressed.

Rick T

I have no idea of what is under the canvas. Could just be "stuff" being stowed there. There are some vents located in that area. Crews stowed stuff wherever they found open space.

Good overhead views during this period of this class (and most destroyers) are hard to come by.

As for the "round" tubs in your CAD, I think they need to be bigger around, roughly the diameter as the top rail diameter on the Searchlight railing in looking at the photos. Also, be sure to have the 20-mm base ring fully ON THE DECKHOUSE DECK ... on many of the 50-cal and 20-mm installations (SIMS and BENSON-GLEAVES classes) the foundation ring was mount right over the wall below for MAX support. There wouldn't be enough support for the gun if the mount foundation was off the deck over thin air. See the attached crop view of ANDERSON at Charleston on 9 January 1942. It gives a better perspective of the size of the tubs and relationship to other "stuff" on the aft deckhouse.

As for MUSTIN's configuration. As I said, she looked to have been EXACTLY the same as the others when she completed the Mods at Charleston. I have no idea when or why she was modified. As I said she operated on different operations from the other three. All of the other three still appear to be the same in May-June 1942 as they were in January 1942, save some additions to rafts and such.

Great stuff, thanks. I hadn't thought about where the center of the base ring should be, dummy me. I can tell that the steering position needs to be reshaped.

Guest, thanks but it really isn't hard. The learning curve takes time, but once you know what you're doing its actually pretty fast drawing stuff up. Great to hear that you're getting some use from your, "empties!"

Bob

Here's three shots of my Sim's conversion, USS Anderson, DD411, using your stack and mid deckhouse. I am very pleased with their look. I'm not real sure how to do this, so please bear with me.
The donor kit was the 1/350 Dragon USS Livermore kit. I'll get some more full length shots made and published soon. I need to make a couple of fixes, weather, and flat coat it, but I just wanted to show your parts in use. I hope your are pleased with them.
throck3

Photo two

Photo three

NICE!!!!!

I can't tell you how super it is to see these being used. Your model looks wonderful, a great model of an underrated and important ship! You're far better with keeping PE rails straight than I ever will be. Are the splotches brush painted or airbrushed? They look very evenly and petitely airbrushed, as I'm not seeing the paint build up and heavy deposits that brushes can sometimes leave behind.

Bob

Well, thanks. On the larger structures, hull, stack, deckhouses, etc., they are airbrushed, using enamels and scotch tape or post it note masks. The smaller structures, such as the 20mm gun tubs and main gun houses, have the contrasting camo color brushed on after a base color coat airbrushed.

Very happy you like it. You do good work.

Rick

For the USS Walke, which would be the best kit to get on the Sims-class DDs?

I know that Niko makes a really nice USS Hughes, and that Tamiya and a few others (Blue Ridge) make a USS Sims (itself - although the Blue Ridge sells for around $300 on Free Time Hobbies).

Which one would be the best for the USS Walke in the South Pacific c.1942 (prior to being Sunk in the same battle as the Hiei)?

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Matthew,

In which scale and plastic or resin?

I don't know much about the resin kits to tell you which one has a configuration closest to WALKE.

The Tamiya 1/700 scale kit is the only plastic SIMS class kit in the game. You are lucky, the Tamiya kit models the "Norfolk NY style mods" which USS WALKE was one of.

In August 1942 WALKE was modified to a six 20-mm gun configuration with four guns on the aft deckhouse in a four-leaf clover layout. So some mod work would be required to the Tamiya kit.

Here are a couple of MINY photos of WALKE after her upgrade. Still in Ms 12mod ... just about, if not the last destroyer on the West Coast to remain in that measure before Ms 21 took completely over as a yard repaint requirement. No idea if she repainted into Ms 21 locally before her loss.

Hey-
I have a bit of a basic question, but I just wanted to make sure before I commit paint to plastic. I'm starting a USS Hammann. Can someone explain MS 12 Mod as applied to this ship?



So the hull is Sea Blue (5-S) with Haze Gray (5-H) splotches? And the superstructure is Ocean Gray (5-O) also with Haze Gray splotches? It seems like some of the descriptions of MS 12 Mod say that you can (should?) put Sea Blue splotches over Ocean Gray.

Thanks for your help.

Phil

I'm not a big camo expert and figuring out specific "colors" from B&W photos is a guessing game, but I would say that the hull is 5-N and 5-O with the superstructure being 5-O and 5-H. The Atlantic Fleet switched from 5-S to 5-N as they switched from Ms 12 "original" to the Ms 12mod(or R) scheme in late 1941. Those colors would follow the "rules" for Ms 12mod(R). NOW then whether they followed the rules I don't know.

Another photo of one of HAMMANN's DesDiv sisters at Charleston Navy Yard, USS MORRIS (DD-417), taken at the same time seems to show the color gradients as prescribed by "Ms 12mod(R)" better. By the way this photo of MORRIS shows her entering drydock and the destroyer closest to her behind her is USS HAMMANN. This gives you a different perspective angle of that ship.

Here is the same image first as I scanned the original print at NARA and as seen on Navsource from what NHHC scanned. An example of now different "scans" and maybe different original prints, can provide different "shades" of gray.

Hey-
Thanks Rick! Very helpful. I used your color advice and I think it looks about right.

I'm making good progress on the USS Hammann (check the Works in Progress section for some pics). I plan to use the ship in a diorama lying alongside Yorktown, and I'm trying to work out some of the details of what that looks like. Most references note that Hammann had rigged up foamite hoses and a water hose for firefighting, A hose to pump in seawater for counterflooding and an oil suction hose.

So does anyone know where the connections for these systems are on a Sims-class DD? Do these type of details show up on any set of plan that are out there?

Thanks!

Phil

WOW!

I had not before noticed how similar the Sims-class was to the Benson/Gleaves-class(es).

The bridge is nearly identical.

And, thank you Rick for your encyclopedic DD knowledge.

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Here are a series of photos taken of USS MORRIS (DD-417) and USS RUSSELL (DD-414) on 27-28 October 1942 after the Battle of Santa Cruz, as they transfer survivors from USS HORNET (CV-8). These photos were attached to the Santa Cruz Action Report with photos taken from USS NORTHAMPTON. Most of these photos, if not all of them, were prints made from a movie film frames shot from NORTHAMPTON.

This is a photo of USS MORRIS showing the damage to her bridge while she was alongside USS HORNET fighting her fires. This is a photo I have never seen before.



The follow are a series of eight photos of USS RUSSELL as she transferred some of the about 600 crewmen from USS HORNET to NORTHAMPTON. Over 27-28 October 1942, RUSSELL made four separate transfers to NORTHAMPTON. Other crewmen were transferred to USS JUNEAU on 28 October 1942. Some of these images I have seen elsewhere, but these scans are better than any I have observed. In general they go from views of the bow to the bridge to the aft part of the ship.

Thank you, Rick.

Those are some beautiful photos.

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Wow, it looks like the AA arrangement on Russell's after deckhouse changed yet again. If I have the progression correct, she started 1942 looking like Hughes, now got this arrangement with the 20mm tub sides extended aft, and by 1943 had an arrangement of 4 20mms there with (if memory serves) the little deckhouse atop the main deckhouse removed. That's one modified DD!

This is all from memory so I could be wrong

Thanks for the photos, those are amazing.

Bob