The Ship Model Forum

Try this link. It's for the Naval Association of Destroyer Veterans. Shows a picture of the Fletcher with sonar extended on home page.

http://www.destroyers.org/

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Any ship larger than a Destroyer is a waste of metal.

I know that configuration. Problem is that it is Fletcher class destroyer after FRAM II modification. I need info how it was made in 1944 (for my USS Heermann).

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God created Arrakis to train the faithful.

If I had to make a guess I'd say that's a good area to put it. They probably upgraded the sonar in the same area it originally was.

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Any ship larger than a Destroyer is a waste of metal.

Sleepwalker,

I have been looking for a photo of the WWII sonar installed on a Fletcher. I'm sure I have seen it somewhere, but I can't lay my hands on it now. A.D. Baker III has a profile view drawing of the Fletcher in June 1942 (on page 127) in Friedman's book "US Destroyers An Illustrated Design History" showing the sonar dome on the bottom of the hull. The Sonar Dome is pretty small and looks to be retractable to at least some extent. The dome is directly below and a little in front of the #1 5-in. gun mount. At this point, I don't know if this was the same position used on ALL Fletchers or not.

Sleepwalker,

You owe me. I searched through something like a 1,000 drawings on the Destroyer History Foundation Bath Iron Works Fletcher Class Drawings DVD for the units they built before I found these. Not sure about other builders, but BIW used this same location/installation for ALL of the Fletchers they built.

I don't know if you can read these or not. I had to downsize them on photobucket before I was allowed to post them here. I learned something here, the sonar (echo sound projector) foundation and fairwater was mounted off the centerline keel to starboard between Frames 52 and 54 ... cutting through frame 53. The offset explains why the sonar dome had to be extended to clear the keel.

The first drawing shows the general hull arrangements in this area.



The second drawing shows a close-up of the area where the sonar was mounted.



The last drawing shows the Fairwater and Sea-Chest for the Sound Projector equipment.

Rick - you are absolutely great!

This is exactly what I needed. Sad to say but no Fletcher model I have seen photos, no book I have shows this feature.
Huge thanks!

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God created Arrakis to train the faithful.

Sleepwalker,

The other thing I forgot to mention. I checked the frame numbers referenced for the location of the sonar in the drawings above and Frame 53 is located directly below the area between 52 mount and the bridge. That is further aft than the position show on the Fletcher drawing in Friedman's book. So, I don't know if there were more than one location used for the sonar during the war.

I'm looking right now at USS The Sullivans AOTS. Basically she is exacly the same ship as USS Heerman since she was build at Beth SF. Here sound room is placed just before 51 mount (22 frame). It is really confusing - were here different interior arrangements for Fletchers? Was sonar dome at some distance from control room (personally I don't think so)?

I just have found following photo:

It shows USS Schroeder (DD-501)at inspection of sonar dome in drydock, 1945. (Surce: Navsource).

Sonar dome here has an elliptical shape and it seems not to match to mounting as shown on drawings posted by you, which is more rectangular.

Below is drawing (again Navsource) showing USS Heermann configuration:

As you can see it is sonar dome shown just in front of 51 mount.

Still open question is if sonar dome was changing its placement from ship to ship? Second one - were there different types of the sonar domes?

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God created Arrakis to train the faithful.

Sleepwalker,

Good questions that I can not answer. They may have relocated the sonar equipment towards the end of the war? As for the shape of the dome. The drawings I posted show the sea chest and the fairwater that blended it to the hull and not the sonar equipment itself. The dome would be hydrodynamic shaped and I believe that it could be retracted (that is what I remember anyway) and would fit inside the rectangular shape of the sea chest. I'm pretty sure that the drawings are correct for when the BIW ships were built in 1942-43. What happened AFTER that I don't know.

I have sent an e-mail to someone who may know. We will just have to wait and see.

Does this link helps?

http://www.ussslater.org/decks/flyingbr ... iagram.gif

After doing some more digging, this Sonar location on USN Destroyers isn't an easy question to answer. Originally the modern destroyers were to get TWO SONARS, but was cut back to one when production of sonars couldn't keep up with the numbers of DD's, DE's, etc being built. Also, the sonars changed as the war progressed. So I can't give a good answer to the question.

Sleepwalker,

Not a complete answer, but once I found out that originally they planned on TWO SONARS, I went back and looked for another location near Frame 20-25 area. Bingo I found an opening at Frame 25. I couldn't find the referenced Sea Chest drawings. I never found any drawings on the BIW DVD of the Sonar Domes, but they were Government Supplied Equipment and the builders didn't have to fabricate them.

Anyway, this probably answers the WHERE the single sonar dome was located. The transmitter was lowered into the dome and could be rotated. Wish I had the sea chest drawing, but that may have varied anyway.

Thanks Rick

Looking at the last drawing there should be large cut in the hull at frame 25. Photo posted by me shows pretty shallow one - similar to the arrangement from frame 54. I just ordered Illustrated Design History on US Destroyers, maybe this new reference will put some light on the problem.

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God created Arrakis to train the faithful.

Hi
SInce this place is for Fletcher classes, I'll just show some pics of the progress on my Fletcher. It's about a fictional dio of the Fletcher after a very fierce battle with the Japanese (washing with black was the effect for this). I think she was near Guadalcanal in 1943 in when I saw this pic,

I thought of the encircled pic as if there was a small base there so I started to work!

the 1943 guns still need to be added. The model is in its 1943 configuration with the Camouflage and the gun tubs and others. The radar arrangements are somehow wrong but it kinda looks nice!




The gun tub in the port side is yet to be added

Thats all!
Nick

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Nichol Caballero
Civil Engineer and Ship Enthusiast

Greetings to all and kudos to Nick for the diorama!

I'm finishing up my ISW BM-10 Wyoming and repairs to my Tamiya Missouri. I have the USS Paulding shelved while awaiting info on WW I Dazzle painting, which I would like to try my hand at.

In the meantime I've picked up the Tamiya Fletcher kit with GMM p/e. I didn't want to build 'another' Fletcher or O'Bannon. I read about the Cactus Striking Force and the USS De Haven. I found no models of her on this site or SteelNavy!

I got all excited and decided this was the ship I was going to build. After all, she deserved remembrance for her short, but tragic, service.

Then I found out the most likely reason for finding no models of her... no pics or info!

Actually, I found one nice, but not-so-helpful pic of her a few days before her sinking. At least I know her camo! However, being the stubborn guy I am, I still want to build a model of her!

Can anyone help with placement/numbers of AA guns and equipment? Radars? Anything??

Thanks in advance! BTW,

Daniel "On the Left Coast" Chavez

Daniel,

The De Haven during her brief career, only had the two twin 40-mm mount configuration with one on the fantail and one on the revised lower deckhouse tub between 53 and 54 mounts. She had four 20-mm guns when she went to the Pacific ... one on each side in front of the bridge and one on each side amidships on the main deck. Apparently she had two additional 20-mm single guns added atop her pilothouse while in the Pacific ... the only known Fletcher class unit to have two on the pilothouse. Exact position from the fuzzy photos is hard to determine, but appear to be roughly located to port and starboard just ahead of where the curved area of the bridge merged with the flat sides. You are right, there are not that many photos of the De Haven and picking out the pilothouse roof 20-mm guns is not easy.

Rick, thanks for all the info and help! I've just read all 21 pages of this thread, which I will later reread for more info. This can certainly become an addiction!!

Your diagrams showing the 20mm placements were great!

I also dug through many photos of sister ships on Navsource, Destroyerhistory.org, destroyersonline, ussfletcher.org, and navyyardassociates. Lots of great pics, but not much on DeHaven.

My questions:
1)Would it make sense to mount Ready Service lockers atop the pilothouse to service the 2 20mm guns?
2)Should I keep the railings atop the pilothouse? (I think shields required yardwork (?) and the blurry pic of her seems to show railing.)
3)Were the RS lockers for the amidships 20mm guns reduced when she had two of the mounts removed?
4)Would the fantail 40mm have an associated director and tub such as, I believe, the Strong had?
5)Was the revised lower deckhouse tub between mounts 53 and 54 similar to Strong or Harrison?
6)Would DeHaven also have had the L'Arsenal-style anti-skid deckmats?

Sorry if there are too many questions! I'm looking forward to a fairly accurate, but not rivet-counter or Advanced Modeler Syndrome, build.

Thanks again in advance...and for answering my previous post so quickly!

Daniel "On the Left Coast" Chavez

Daniel,

It would be logical to have ready service ammo boxes near any of the 20-mm guns. Exact locations atop the pilothouse are difficult to determine. Since installing two 20-mm guns atop the pilothouse was a non-standard installation and likely was installed by the local repair crews. But the area atop the pilothouse is kind of limited and it had to be crowded on this ship. It may be that the number of ready service boxes were limited due to limited space. The De Haven was the fourth Fletcher class destroyer to arrive in the South Pacific war zone (arriving in early December 1942) behind Nicholas, O'Bannon, and Fletcher. The only other possible Fletcher to have two 20-mm guns atop the pilothouse, would be the fifth Fletcher to arrive, the Saufley (arriving in December). But photos of all these ships early in the South Pacific are sparse. The standard for early Fletchers when the fantail twin 40-mm mount was added was to reduce the number of 20-mm guns from six to four, with one from each side amidships being removed and the number of ready service boxes would have been reduced. The VCNO directed that the number of 20-mm guns be increased back to six on 21 October 1942. The number started to increase steadily after that. Whether a given ship got the latest "authorized" armament depended on when they returned to a Yard for modification or departed for the war zones. The fact is that not that many Fletchers ended up making it to the war zones of the South Pacific with only one 20-mm per side amidships.

The De Haven and none of the other Fletchers with one 20-mm atop the pilothouse had splinter shield bulwarks installed around them that I'm aware of. They did put canvas covers over the railings in many cases. Although not impossible for a local repair crew to install splinter bulwarks, in general a yard was required for an organized installation.

The two twin 40-mm mount and Mk 51 directors installation including tubs would have been very close to the one seen on the Strong.

I have no idea on the deck anti-skid mats. I have seen so many different layouts used by different builders. If you have a deck pattern for almost any of the early Bath Iron Works built ships (De Haven, Strong, etc.), that should be adequate. I have wondered if the deck mats were maintained to the same pattern once they saw active use in the war?

These three images ... the first two are the same one from Lenton's old book from the 1970's the second I marked the two 20-mm guns ... show the De Haven just before she was lost. There is another photo that appears to be from this same sequence ... but just a little different. The original prints I have seen are pretty dark and I have wondered if these images came from a film? I have not checked movie images at NARA or had time to dig through the NARA 80-G files for more De Haven photos. The third image from Destroyer History Foundation files of images scanned at NARA, shows the profile view of the De Haven.

Rick,

Thank you for the additional photos! You're awesome!!

I kind of figured the RS lockers atop the pilot house would be tight, but necessary. I'll give it some "playtime" to see what seems most logical. Also, from the photo taken just before her loss, I thought I could make out the 20s through railings. That's why I was originally thinking of just leaving the railings on.

It seems to me that if someone placed a pair of 'unauthorized' 20's atop the pilothouse for more firepower, then they probably would have fought to keep all four amidships, too. But, when I looked more closely at the pics you provided, especially the 3rd, it seems as if the tub in front of mount 53 is quite rounded and about the right size for a single mount. It's hard to judge, so I'll have to think that one through a bit more.

I was able to find a very good pic of the fantail of the Strong, so I think I know what to do there now. Thanks for the confirmation.

I knew I was 'pushing it' with the deck mat question and figured that, with little photo evidence, I should probably look to the sisters again. I know everyone likes to model them 'nice and neat', but weren't they laid loosely on deck, kind of like the old front porch mats my folks used to have at home? Or were they fastened somehow?

Anyhow, thank you again for the great pics, lightning quick responses, and friendly advice. You, and others like you, are what convinced me to finally join this board. Hopefully I can get some pics of my ships and contribute something soon!

Daniel "On the Left Coast" Chavez

Daniel,

The De Haven certainly had only one 20-mm per side amidships ... at least WITH a bulwark. There could have been an EXTRA 20-mm added without bulwarks, but the photos don't hint at that. The early Bath Iron Works Fletchers after the first three (DD449-451) delivered with the quad 1.1-in. mount and six 20-mm guns, were delivered from the builder with the fantail twin 40-mm and only four 20-mm guns (DD467-469 and 507-510). Many of the early Fletcher's went to the North Africa Landings as convoy escorts in November 1942 and upon their return were refitted for service in the Pacific and had as many as eight 20-mm guns total ... two per side amidships, two on 01 deck before the bridge, one on an elevated platform on the centerline before the bridge and one atop the pilothouse. The De Haven didn't go to North Africa, but headed direct to the Pacific ... almost straight from the builder and post-delivery outfitting at Boston Navy Yard.

I'm no expert on the deck anti-skid walkways ... but, they were either cemented down or was an applied coating in a pattern. As for looking for the best "pattern" to the anti-skid walkways ... look at photos of De Haven's sister-ships in the above list for the pattern used by BIW. I wouldn't be surprised that the Federal built ships from the same period used the same pattern.