The Ship Model Forum

"Gun",

Good luck with your build. As for finding your Coat of Arms for the ship and the DesRon 58, I don't know of a ready source for them. I would suggest that you contact Dave McComb at Destroyer History for possible sources. Dave has a lot of contacts with destroyer organizations and historical collections.

Hello !

I am looking for photographs of any Fletchers from DESRON 54 from late 1945 - 1946 that show the Red Devil squadron insignia. I believe that Destroyer Squadron 54 included the following nine Fletchers:

DESTROYER DIVISION 107 DesDiv 107
DD678 USS McGowan
DD688 USS Remey
DD680 USS Melvin
DD691 USS Mertz
DD690 USS Norman Scott

DESTROYER DIVISION 108 DesDiv 108
DD677 USS McDermut
DD679 USS McNair
DD689 USS Wadleigh
DD798 USS Monssen

In particular, I am seeking photos which show the Red Devil on the forward funnel and a large numeral below the mid ship 40mm gun mount. So far I have found the following photos below which show this insignia. Any other photos of these Fletchers showing the squadron insignia or information on which ships had which numbers would be greatly appreciated!

Thank You,

Bill

In looking through the images I have, the Red Devil Squadron insignia appeared sometime after April 1945. I couldn't find any photos taken in April or before with the insignia. Likely the insignia was worn by all ships in the Squadron after it was adopted (whenever that was) possibly not until the war was either over or almost done. There is no regulation nor do I know of any precedent in the USN to paint what appears to be a "ranking" number for the Squadron on the ships. My understanding is that the steaming order for ships in a Division/Squadron was established by the senior ranking of the ship's CO. By the way, REMEY was the Squadron Flag ship.

The "ranking" number appears as the ships are being decommissioned and in other photos the number has been painted out prior to actual decommissioning (December 1945). Anyway, as far as I know, no other destroyers had this "ranking" number scheme.

Thank you Rick for the information. As you indicated, I don't know of any other destroyer squadron that carried these numbers. This is the reason I wanted to know if the other ships in the squadron had the numbers painted on also. I have seen one undated picture of Melvin in MS22 that "might" show a number, but the angle is very bad and it could just be grime and/or wear. If I had to guess, I would say number "5", but this is just a guess. I found it a little odd that Remey had the Red Devil, but not the number.

Cheers,

Bill

Hello All, I just picked up the fletsher in 1/144 scale and I'm going to build my Grandfathers ship. The porter DD 800. I have a couple questions about this ship, that I hope yall can answer. First is this ship a round bridge or square ? ( I believe it's a square bridge) Second is this one of the fletcher class that had a twin rudder set up ? Third Since Grandpa was on her maiden voyage I would like to paint her in her original camo paint scheme,does anyone know where I can find a color chart for this measure ? I thank you for any and all help.

Hey prowannab

Others will know more but DD-800 was a square bridge with a single rudder.

Here is a link to a photo section on the Porter which will bear those statements out. I think you'll find some interesting stuff there on that site.

http://www.destroyersonline.com/usndd/dd800/dd800pho.htm

Regards
Steve

Many have alluded to a handful of the last batch of Fletcher's having the twin rudders of the later Sumner and Gearing class ships. So far, nobody has been able to positively identify any specific Fletcher with that config. Whether or not it actually existed is, at this point, unknown.

Well, the first page of this thread has some discussion regarding the twin rudders - has anything new shown up since then?

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De quoi s'agit-il?

There may be twin rudder Fletchers, but his question was specifically of the Porter. She had a single rudder..........at least according to the photos I sent him to in the link.

Regards
Steve

I looked into the reported FLETCHERS at the end of the class' numbering sequence (DD 799-804) built at Todd-Seattle variously reported that four to six had twin rudders at NARA and found nothing to support that statement. As Steve mentioned post-war photos on-line show that PORTER (DD-800) and ROOKS (DD-804) had a single rudder and textual records from 1952 for GREGORY (DD-802) states that she had the post-war lengthened SINGLE rudder. I think that pretty much eliminates that these FLETCHERS had twin rudders. Plus, it made little sense to prototype these ships to test out the concept for the SUMNERS, when they were completed well after the first SUMNERS were started.

What I have not tracked down is the possibility that one (or both?) of the two LEAD yards built the last few of their FLETCHERS with twin rudders. These yards would be Bath Iron Works and/or Federal Kearny. These two yards pretty much were the leaders in any changes to the class along with Boston Navy Yard. So given the transition of the production line from FLETCHERS to SUMNERS in 1943 at BIW with DD 688-691 to DD 692, I would think that if this is a TRUE modification done to any FLETCHERS, they would be the most likely candidates. But, the BIW Engineering drawings don't indicate this modification so maybe Federal did so with the last of their FLETCHERS approximately DD 678-680. I don't know. Photos of the stern below the waterline for destroyers during WWII are fairly rare, making it hard to be positive.

Thank you Rick - I will add a note regarding that in the posts on the first page.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Does anyone have pictures of the rear bulkhead of the bridge of the round bridge Fletcher? Thanks in advance

Hello Rick,

Regarding the possibility of DD688-DD691 having twin rudders, I am certain that DD689 Wadleigh did not have twin rudders. My father reported to Wadleigh on 5 January 1945 when she was in drydock undergoing extensive repairs (almost rebuilding actually) from the mine explosion in September 1944. He clearly remembered Wadleigh having a single rudder and we had many discussions about the rudder configuration as part of a model I was working on at the time. Unfortunately, I don't have any photos of the rudder area and my Dad passed away in 2006, but he was very clear about the single rudder. Maybe there are some archival photos somewhere of Wadliegh in 1945 when she was being rebuilt. It was a major undertaking at Mare Island and was probably extensively photographed.

I know this is anecdotal, maybe some photographs will surface in the future. Can't offer anything about DD688, DD690, or DD691 as I have never seen the rudder area photographed on these Fletchers.

Regards,

Bill

The BIW FLETCHER class Engineering Drawings had a rudder drawing for all of the FLETCHERS they built EXCEPT for the last four they built ... DD 688-691 ... and that got me going. But, when I found the second "rudder" drawing for these four destroyers, it was a single rudder with some changes made to the configuration originally applied to BLACK (DD-566).

I tried to say, and did a bad job at it, that I had eliminated BIW built FLETCHERS from having built any twin rudder FLETCHERS because of the Engineering drawings.

Here are the only 1945 images I have of WADLEIGH ... 10 April 1945.





Also, here is an image of her not long after recommissioning for the Korean War and while she was being used in a movie.

Well I just returned from a visit with my Grandpa, and as he remembers it the porter had twin rudders. I asked him how he would know for sure that the ship had twin rudders or not. He said during their shakedown cruise they had a small engagement with a US sub that also was at sea trials. During this small exercise the sub fired a dummy torpedo at the Porter and hit one of it's prop shafts and bent it. So the Porter had to return to drydock to have this shaft repaired. As he says it, he saw the ship in drydock and remembers that as " he remembers the ship definitely had 2 rudders". So I went on to ask him other question about his ship and he remembers pretty much everything about it. day it was decommissioned and recommissioned, and then decommissioned again. He also remembers that for sure it had a square bridge. So as it stands right now. I would have to believe my grandpa, and say that the Porter was one of these late war redesigned DD's. I found an article on the web about the DE's going to a twin rudder in the same timeline, because they had found out the turning radius was much tighter. I'm not saying that what everyone is is wrong ,or that the information that they have is incorrect, but I have to go with what my Grandpa says. I'm sure that there might be a possibility that he was confused about the rudder to the prop, so I will reconfirm with him before I build it with twin rudders, just some food for thought I guess. Take care and thanks for contemplating

I certainly wouldn't put it past him - after all, Ron Smith did post that he had some conclusive proof of dual rudders on the first page, so that has to apply to something, right?

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De quoi s'agit-il?

My problem with PORTER having twin rudders are these photos ...

http://www.destroyersonline.com/images/dd800030.jpg ...

http://www.destroyersonline.com/images/dd800031.jpg ...

No dates are provided, but they appear to be late WWII or during recommissioning for the KW. So unless the hull numbers have been doctored and the other pieces of evidence bogus, I don't see how it is possible. I haven't concluded that NO FLETCHERS got twin rudders ... the problem is which ones. I know that at least one FLETCHER was used as a prototype for the Mod of the Mk 37 director used on SUMNERS and GEARINGS. So, it certainly isn't out of the question. The problem would be that to serve as a prototype, a FLETCHER would have had to be built pretty early with this twin rudder configuration.

If your Grandfather served on other destroyers, SUMNERS or GEARINGS, in his career, he could be mixing ships. I suggest printing the above images to see if they jog his memory. By the way, there are many good photos at this website ... http://www.destroyersonline.com/usndd/d ... 800pho.htm?

Rick, I just seen your original post on page 6 I think with the aft under photo of the Porter in dry dock. I would have to agree with no doubt that my Grandpa got confused about the twin rudders to twin props. As the picture clearly shows the Porter or 800 with a single rudder. As this was his only ship he ever served on, I truly believe he just didn't hear correctly when I asked him the question. Because after for being 88 he still has a his faculties and is doing quite well. I hope this holds true for some years to come.

ussvf17,

I passed over your post earlier, sorry.

When you say you are interested in images of the rear bulkhead of the bridge of round bridge FLETCHER, which area are you interested in? There is the aft side of the pilothouse/navigation bridge and there is the deckhouse below that. I'll tell you that this area is a difficult one to find good photos of with stacks, flag boxes, etc in the way. Plus, it would help to know which ship you plan to model and during what period of time. Here are a couple of sample images of FLETCHER herself and a couple of her sisters to illustrate how hard it will be to see the bulkhead itself.

FLETCHER as completed on 26 June 1942 before some mods were done in this area.


FLETCHER after being updated to five twin 40-mm mounts on 13 August 1943.


La VALLETTE after being updated to five twin 40-mm mounts on 19 July 1943.


JENKINS after being updated to five twin 40-mm mounts on 13 January 1944.

Thanks for replying, Rick. I am interested the inside rear bulkhead of the Nav Bridge/pilot house. The reason I am interested in it is I am building the 1944 O'Bannon with interior details. I have the builder plan so I know the general layout but I don't have much detail I would like with the read bulkhead.

I also have the book "Action Tonight" where it has a couple of the interior pictures of O'Bannon Nav bridge/pilot house. From what I can tell from the pictures, there were equipments on the rear bulkhead on the O'Bannon that weren't on the restored USS Kidd. Any help you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Do you have the Action Tonight book? Do you want me to scan them in for you?