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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:16 am 
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Hello All:

Does anybody know of a model company that makes any of the Edsall Class DE's? My uncle was on one of these and I would like to build one if available.

Thanks in advance...
Stephen C.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:46 pm 
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You might convert the 1/350 USS England, which would need little more than a scratch-built funnel. I have not tried that conversion but I have scratch-built models with scratch-built funnels. Roll up a strip of brass, solder it, and shape it.

From illustrations, Cannons and Edsalls looked very similar. The Skywave 1/700 Cannon kit exists, with two kits per box. Barely 5 inches long.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:11 am 
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Hey folks-

I'm looking for dimensions/drawings of the Edsall class funnel. I'd like to convert the Trumpeter England to an Edsall and one of our friends here who is proficient with the 3D printing process has agreed to design such a funnel.

I'll work through the Navsource pages to see what I can find; if anyone knows of any other references please let me know.

Thanks

Jonah


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:35 am 
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Floating Drydock has an E-Book on the Cannon and Edsall class. There are drawings of the stack (pg 107), but are not really dimensioned. The cross section dimensions can be derived from the deck view (pg 108) where the frame numbers are shown. Height will need to be scaled from frame numbers (pg 116).

Since this is a copyrighted document, I'm not going to post images.

This would be a useful resource for your build at any rate. Lots of photos, showing the various details of these ships.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:11 am 
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Ok thanks Rick, I will look into that.

Jonah


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:56 am 
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Location: Herk-de-Stad, Belgium
Not so well known, but Naval Models from the Netherlands sell a Cannon class conversion kit for the Trumpeter USS England. The conversion is sold as the HrMs Van Amstel/De Bitter class ships of the Netherlands Navy. http://www.navalmodels.com/product/bitterklasse-kit-hr-ms-de-bitter-van-amstel/

I know the machinery is different, but to my eye the smoke stack of the Edsall class is the same as on the Cannon class, and so are all the other required changes. So I advise you to consider that conversion set. If somebody knows any relevant differences between the classes please let it know!

http://www.navalmodels.com However, their website seems to be in disorder, loading takes forever, so you better send an email to the shop owner Michiel Woort, explaining your request: info@navalmodels.com

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Maarten,

Interesting, but once I got the page to load, I still have no clue as to what is included in the conversion set. I don't read Dutch, but I saw nothing that looked like a link to a parts breakdown.

Could you provide a listing of what parts are in this set? Or a link to a review of the conversion set?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:22 am 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Maarten, Could you provide a listing of what parts are in this set? Or a link to a review of the conversion set?

Sure! a picture of the on an unpainted buildup.
Attachment:
Cannon conv.jpg
Cannon conv.jpg [ 186.67 KiB | Viewed 3310 times ]
If you give me your email I can send you the assembly instructions including the pictures in English too.
A fully build example is in the gallery of this forum:
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dd/nl/Dubois-350-gg/

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:42 am 
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Maarten,

Thanks. I sent an E-Mail (actually sent it a couple of days ago now and gotten no response, but it is the weekend) to the owner of the shop selling these asking about the price of the kit if sold and shipped to the USA. The price and extent of the modifications they made to the ENGLAND kit to model a CANNON class unit verse what difference there are between CANNON and EDSALL classes will determine if I buy one of these.


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Hi Rick,

I think here http://www.ussslater.org/history/dehistory/history_classes.html is explained in sufficient detail where the differences between the classes are. Edsall and Cannon class were virtual identical, only internally the machinery was different.

I will check with Michiel if he received your request.

Maarten

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:08 pm 
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There are minor structural differences between builders and variations with time. But, yes most of the CANNON and EDSALL classes are cookie cutter matches. There are differences with the BUCKELY class, but I don't have them cataloged.

I was unsure why they redid the whole deck and bridge. My uncle served on an EDSALL. I built a model of his ship for him years ago in 1/700 scale from the Skywave kits. I bought a Trumpeter USS ENGLAND kit awhile back with intension of building her as my uncle's ship. But it has been sometime since I sat down and noted the differences. I have been finding photos of his ship at NARA.


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:48 pm 
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With Steve Larsen's 5" mounts available can someone point me toward plan and elevation arrangements for such a conversion? The USS Camp is one possibility since she was re-gunned apparently without any other major changes except for other armament. I am planning to do this in an "OOB" fashion to the extent possible. A conversion without landing the torpedo tubes would be the easiest. I picked up a Trumpeter kit from China for $15 including shipping so I can't resist this "plan" as I couldn't resist doing the waterlined all-gun 1/500 scale USS Cleveland class using a Renwal USS Springfield kit.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:19 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
Steve, what time period, late war or post war? http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/251.htm


David

Definitely late war prior to the DER conversions. Any ship, no particular one in mind - also diesel or steam since Steve Larsen does the correct stack for diesel drives. My idea is to avoid any major superstructure changes to keep the project as simple as possible. It would be helpful if you can point me to a list of ships that were modified with the 5" mounts so I can start chasing options.

SteveG


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:51 pm 
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USS CAMP was the only EDSALL class unit upgraded with two 5-in gun mounts. She retained the original bridge and aft superstructure, but the forward and aft 3-in guns and structures under them were removed in the upgrade.

Several BUCKLEY class units were also upgraded with 5-in guns.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:01 am 
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Steve wrote:
DavidP wrote:
Steve, what time period, late war or post war? http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/251.htm


David

Definitely late war prior to the DER conversions. Any ship, no particular one in mind - also diesel or steam since Steve Larsen does the correct stack for diesel drives. My idea is to avoid any major superstructure changes to keep the project as simple as possible. It would be helpful if you can point me to a list of ships that were modified with the 5" mounts so I can start chasing options.

SteveG


Hi Steve,
I think the entire superstructure is different for the EDSALL and CANNON classes as opposed to the BUCKLEY and RUDDEROW classes -- not only the diesel stack vs the steam stack (boiler rooms you know! the entire internal arrangement has to be different. )

Therefore I think that any EDSALL or CANNON requires new superstructures i.e. requires modification or using the conversion set I mentioned (Naval Models), or the PitRoad version.

Here the new link to the Naval Models page, they recently revised their webshop.
https://www.navalmodels.com/product/350-06-bitterklasse-kit-hr-ms-de-bittervan-amstel/

Maarten

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Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:02 am 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
USS CAMP was the only EDSALL class unit upgraded with two 5-in gun mounts. She retained the original bridge and aft superstructure, but the forward and aft 3-in guns and structures under them were removed in the upgrade.

Several BUCKLEY class units were also upgraded with 5-in guns.


RicK can you list the names of these so I can explore their history and photos? Thinking of using the England and upgrading the AA after removing the torpedo mount. Kinda like my version of the 5” upgrading without doing a major superstructure modification.
Steve G


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:36 am 
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According to Norman Friedman US Destroyers; An Illustrated Design History (US Naval Institute Press, 1982), eleven TE (Buckley class) DEs were converted to carry two single 5"/38 (DEs 217-219, 678-680, 696-698, 700-701), seven (DEs 51, 57, 153, 213, 223 and 577) were converted to DER configuration (two single 5"/38, and SP radar plus countermeasures gear on a tripod mainmast - DEs 220-222 were also planned but their conversions were cancelled), and the APD conversions also carried a single 5"/38 - but the latter would be a much more challenging conversion from a kit of ENGLAND!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Mr Stoneman provided the complete list of BUCKLEY's upgraded with two 5-in mounts. None of the originally 3-in gun armed DE's rearmed with 5-in guns made it to the war zone after the conversion was done. Some of these units were active after WWII. None of the WWII DER conversions were used in the Post-WWII "Dew Line" DER program. The USN wanted to use the EDSALL class units for the DER task because of the lower fuel use and maintenance cost.

I personally wasn't pleased with the appearance of the conversion set available from NAVAL MODELS and really shocked at how much it would cost to have it shipped to me in the USA. So I started a conversion using the CANNON/EDSALL stack from Model Monkey on the Trumpeter ENGLAND kit I already had.

As I worked at converting the Trumpeter ENGLAND kit to my Uncle's late WWII EDSALL this last summer, I found several differences between the CANNON/EDSALL and BUCKLEY deck layouts/design in the photos I have. To solve several questions/conflicts I had from the photos and the Floating Drydock CANNON/EDSALL E-Book, I pulled my Uncle's Ship plans at NARA, which I didn't do before because since she was one of the post-WWII DER conversions, I had assumed that any plans available for her would show that configuration. (Most Booklet of General Plans (BGP) available at NARA show the LAST configuration of that ship) Much to my surprise, her plans were of her as completed WWII configuration. The Floating Drydock E-Book plans are more geared to the CANNON class, which did have some differences with the EDSALL class. I'm now able to track differences between a BUCKLEY and an EDSALL. There are differences, but in general they are pretty easy to alter. The aft deckhouse area is almost the same footprint for both classes (CANNON/EDSALL and BUCKLEY classes) from the torpedo tubes and going aft. The deckhouse area around the stack is somewhat different, particularly on the portside. The EDSALL class deckhouse is wider in places along with cabinets added, etc. Also, the arrangement of the midships 20-mm guns is of a slightly different design (and is different for different builders in each class) and bulwark shape and support construction. The fantail 20-mm gun "tub" needs to be modified as well. Things like location of the 20-mm ready-use ammo lockers vary between units. The shield in front of the #2 3-in gun that protects the hedgehog and #1 3-in gun crew, is a different design that requires removing the one on the BUCKLEY kit and mounting it in the lower position to be accurate. The aft Mk 51 director "tower" for EDSALL class units is of a different design than for the BUCKLEY class.

I was able to add the two late war twin 40-mm mounts amidships in place of the torpedo tubes (or replaced four single 40-mm guns depending on which EDSALL you are modeling) without any alterations to the deckhouse itself. I stalled on my build as I got involved in other things. I need to add some deckhouse extensions and 01 deck overhangs in other places over stowage lockers. My very crude work so far shows my build before I added the amidships twin 40-mm "tubs" and just "placed" the Model Monkey stack it its location is seen in this early build detail view. A lot of that "indent" to the deckhouse on the portside seen in this view will be filled in with deckhouse extensions and cabinets with a nearly continuous deck overhang over the whole area.

Image

Below is the "Status" of my EDSALL class model of USS OTTERSTETTER (DE 244) as she likely appeared at the end of WWII as of today. I need to permanently attach the stack (after I make other mods so it isn't in the way), modify the deckhouse and other mods, plus add additional equipment. I forget since it has been a couple of months since I worked on this model and got the plans from NARA, but I recall needing to alter the shape of some of the 20-mm gun bulwarks from how they appear in this image.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:19 am 
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I was wanting to build a 1/350 model of the Edsall class USS STEWART. I live near the one surviving example we have in Galveston. Reading the thread is the Trumpeter USS LONDON still the way to go? I looked at the Dutch Company conversion which does seem a bit expensive. Any suggestions? I'dlike to model her as she appeared in the last year of the war. Thanks for any help. Will look at Model Monkey as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:34 pm 
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You mean the Trumpeter USS ENGLAND kit? :smallsmile:

When you say the "last year" of the war, you realize that she had at least two different configurations from August 1944 to August 1945. Prior to the summer of 1945 (about May 1945) USS STEWART (DE-238) was in the standard mid-war EDSALL class configuration. However, some units had the TT removed and four single 40-mm mounts installed in their place during the Summer and Fall of 1944, particularly if they operated in the Med near Italy. I have records that shows STEWART was authorized to have the four single 40-mm guns installed, but I don't have records that they were installed and where. Since STEWART did operate in the Med, it is a good possibility that she had the four single 40-mm guns.

I'm actually working on my conversion and depending on how detailed/accurate you want to be, a conversion with the EDSALL class stack isn't all that hard. After the replacement stack, getting a twin 40-mm mount to replace the aft quad 1.1-in installed on BUCKLEY class units, the deckhouse needs some add-ons (there is a deckhouse extension on the portside next to and forward of the stack that isn't on the BUCKLEY class) and some bulwark 20-mm shields need (or should be altered ... each EDSALL class yard had slightly different 20-mm tub bulwark shapes). The DE I'm modeling, was the one my uncle served on in the Pacific late in WWII. My problem in building his ship, was that there was a lack of images from 1945 after she had two twin 40-mm mounts, a Mk 52 director installed on the bridge besides three Mk 51 directors, and other alterations done. After studying photos of other EDSALL class units that had the late WWII AA upgrades, I had a rough idea of the possible mods required. But, depending on which yard built a given EDSALL, which yard altered/modified the ship with the extra armament (My Uncle's DE only had two twin 40-mm mounts added and retained the original twin 40-mm mount. Some units had a quad 40-mm mount replacing the aft twin 40-mm mount.) Since I had no idea of how my Uncle's DE bulwarks and 20-mm tubs were modified in May 1945, I made judgement "guesses" on what changes needed to make. The aft life rafts location as shown to be installed on the USS ENGLAND kit are a guess and I may change them or add the "likely" correct locations. Below are two views of my model as she exists today. My skills aren't the greatest and I'm not proud of some of my scratch built mods, but I'm pleased enough to move on to painting.

Image

Image

If you which to model STEWART as she appeared at the end of the war after May 1945, then you would need to do basically what I did.

You are lucky to have at least ONE image of USS STEWART (DE-238) on Navsource after the AA upgrade prior to heading to the Pacific ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/im ... 623804.jpg ...

From Armament Summaries records I find that STEWART was one of the units that had a quad 40-mm mount installed replacing the aft twin 40-mm originally installed there.

So you would need to get two twin 40-mm mounts and tubs, plus a quad 40-mm mount and tub. I got three twin 40-mm tubs from my spare parts,

Here are a couple of overhead views of typical AA-upgrades with quad 40-mm mounts. Note that location of ready use 20-mm ammo lockers vary as do 40-mm spare barrel stowage lockers.

Image

Image


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