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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:09 am 
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My Internet Speed is back. :smallsmile: It makes hunting through past posts a lot easier.

Here are some images I posted that maybe useful.

... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21795&start=140#p295684 ...

... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21795&start=200#p331212 ...

... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21795&start=200#p331227 ...

If you narrow down to specific units, let me know and I can see what I have.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:41 am 
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Thanks, Rick. I'll go back through the posts. I've got nothing but time right now.
Walt


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:24 pm 
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There are a mix of SUMNER and GEARING destroyers in the posts. But, for the aft deck area where the twin 3-in RFG mounts are and the bridge wings where the single 3-in RFG mounts are located, they are the same layouts.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:33 am 
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Hi Rick,

you once posted a photo of DD-701 dated 1 March 1945, alongside Bunker Hill. She had this unusual to me little extra main mast, I assume with radiolocators...? From that photo I can't really make out its exact location, is it in front or behind the compass station...? do you know if WEEKS was the only one having this arrangement....? many thanks.

Darius  


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 pm 
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Darius,

I couldn't find the original post of that image, so I reloaded it.

Here is the image of USS JOHN W. WEEKS (DD-701) dated 1 March 1945 showing her Radar Countermeasures (RCM) "stub" mainmast. Not many SUMNER's had these RCM Stub Masts installed. I don't have a complete list of which SUMNERS did, I have seen several images, many are distant views where the ID of the destroyer can't be determined. There were at least two versions of the RCM Stub Mast, the one that was installed somewhere on the West Coast and there was a version that PHNY installed during the period between when the initial RCM suite was no longer authorized to be installed and when the new RCM suite was available. Once the new equipment (with DBM, etc) was available, the USN installed the DBM antennas on the aft stack of SUMNER and GEARING class units and the rest of the antennas elsewhere on or near the foremast.

The original RCM mast design for the SUMNER and BENSON-GLEAVES class units (only one unit I know of actually had it installed on a GLEAVES class destroyer), had a single crossbar at the top in a "T-shape" with the APR antennas on the ends. This was similar to the mast installed on FLETCHERS late in 1944. The PHNY version was also a "T-shape" with APR antennas on the ends, but had two supports from the crossbar down to the stub mast. Also, PHNY installed a single early DBM antenna atop the stub mast.

I don't know the exact location where the RCM Stub Mast was located. but hopefully the three images I have posted will narrow down the location some. Particularly the near broadside view of USS CHARLES S. SPERRY (DD-697). It looks to me to have been installed alongside the portside Mk 51 director of the quad 40-mm mount and aft of the emergency con station on the centerline.

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:35 pm 
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That SPERRY image is going to be very helpful. Many thanks Rick. Great comments too, learned something new today...:)

If I may another quick question for you regarding mid 1945 HYMAN AA upgrade when she received third quad 40 mm mount and twin 20 mm guns. Were there more SUMNER Class so modified or she was the only one...? It attracted my attentions because of that unusual splinter shield around that newly added mount which looks incomplete....:)   

Darius


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:28 pm 
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Darius,

It is hard to say whether the alteration and build of the bulwark around USS HYMAN's "new" quad 40-mm mount is complete in this photo.

As best I can tell, very few SUMNERS got the Anti-Kamikaze mod upgrades DURING WWII. The AA mods for destroyers were ordered in April 1945. Which ships got the mods and when were driven by two factors; 1) which destroyers were due (overdue) for overhauls and upgrades, 2) which units had been damaged by Kamikazes or mines in operations off the Philippines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, etc in the first half of 1945. The West Coast yards were overloaded with repairs, overhauls, modifications for all the damaged ships and all the new construction being readily for war.

When destroyers were overhauled was a function of which ones were overdue, and if they could be spared from the frontline. The normal wartime schedule for overhauls was to have them accomplished once a year. But, because of the heavy losses around Iwo Jima and Okinawa many destroyers were kept in theater and 1.5 years between overhauls was more common. Since most of the SUMNERS had only entered operational service (ready for operational service after fitting out, shakedown and training) in the summer of 1944, few were in line for overhauls.

To give an idea of the carnage occurring to destroyers in early 1945, here is a list of just SUMNER class units damaged or sunk by Kamikazes aircraft and small boats of all types. The demand for destroyers was so great, the newly converted SUMNER class Destroyer Minelayers were used as Fleet Destroyers and as can be seen, many were damaged. Many of these units were not so badly damaged that they needed to be sent back to the USA for repairs. Some were sent to the East Coast. Most of these badly damaged units didn't complete repairs and Anti-Kamikaze mods until after the war ended. Some were repaired locally and went back to operational service.

It isn't clear if some of the late completing SUMNER class (DD-758, 781, 857 were upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze mod before heading to the War Zones. USS JOHN R. PIERCE (DD-753) appears to have been upgraded at NorNY in June 1945 and USS LOFBERG (DD-759) was modified at Beth-SF in August 1945.

USS HAYNSWORTH (DD-700), HANK (DD-702) HYMAN (DD-732), and O'BRIEN (DD-725) were of the few, maybe the only ones, to be repaired with the Anti-Kamikaze mod and returned to duty and were in training as the war ended, some may have made it to the War Zone before the war ended.

USS Aaron Ward (DM-34) ... Heavily damaged and not repaired
USS Adams (DM-27)
USS Allen M. Sumner (DD-692) ... damaged and repaired before the Anti-Kamikaze Mods
USS Douglas H. Fox (DD-779) ... damage repaired in August 1945

USS Drexler (DD-741) ... Sunk
USS Hank (DD-702) ... repaired at MINY and returned to duty in July 1945
USS Harry F. Bauer (DM-26)
USS Haynsworth (DD-700) ... repaired at MINY and returned to duty in July 1945

USS Hugh W. Hadley (DD-774) ... Heavily damaged and not repaired
USS Hyman (DD-732) ... repaired at MINY and returned to duty in July 1945
USS Ingraham (DD-694) ... ... didn't return to the West Coast for repairs until after the war was over

USS J. William Ditter (DM-31) ... Heavily damaged and not repaired
USS Laffey (DD-724) ... damage repaired in September 1945
USS Lindsey (DM-32)
USS Maddox (DD-731) ... repaired locally and returned to duty

USS Mannert L. Abele (DD-733) ... Sunk
USS O'Brien (DD-725) ... repaired at MINY and returned to duty in July 1945
USS Purdy (DD-734) ... damage repaired in August 1945
USS Robert H. Smith (DM-23)
USS Shannon (DM-25)
USS Shea (DM-30)
USS Stormes (DD-780) ... didn't return to the West Coast for repairs until after the war was over
USS Walke (DD-723) ... damaged and repaired before the Anti-Kamikaze Mods
USS Zellars (DD-777) ... damage repaired in August 1945


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:28 am 
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Rick's research never ceases to amaze me! I didn't realize any of the Sumner class received the RCM stub mast fitted to the Fletcher class. Interesting stuff.

Any chance you could post the high-res version of the last photo (80-G-466870)? It's a great photo.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 am 
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Attachment:
DD732_Hyman_1945_July_Xww.jpg
DD732_Hyman_1945_July_Xww.jpg [ 94.34 KiB | Viewed 482 times ]


This photo of HYMAN lifted from NavSource seems to indicate that she was indeed completed with this type of bulwark. Of course it doesn't mean that few days later she might have had returned to the yard and got that bulwark reconstructed to a " typical " Anti-Kamikaze mod like those of the GEARING class. Still I find this version of HYMAN interesting enough to go ahead with her model.

I'm working on series of minor SUMNER variations in 1/700, mostly those deployed in the Pacific. So far DD-696 ENGLISH has almost all of its parts in place, to be followed by DD-723 WALKE, DD-701 JOHN W. WEEKS, DD-732 HYMAN, DD-744 BLUE and DD-756 BEATTY ( one exception from the Pacific deployments ). That's the reason behind my inquiries. So thank you very much for your help Rick. Comprehensive as always. 100% in agreement with Ian statement...:)

Darius

Attachment:
DD696_English_1.jpg
DD696_English_1.jpg [ 305.45 KiB | Viewed 482 times ]


Attachment:
DD696_English_1a.jpg
DD696_English_1a.jpg [ 394.54 KiB | Viewed 482 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:03 pm 
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I have noted two types of bulwarks, with other types being possible as well, utilized to surround the added aft quad 40-mm in photos. I suspect like noted on other destroyers that the various yards doing the mod work, have their own "styles" used in manufacturing the bulwarks. They all have to adhere to the working circle and other "requirements", but the construction of the bulwarks wasn't necessarily standardized, particularly early in the introduction of a new armament mod. Since the aft quad 40-mm mount was added to GEARING class destroyers first, there are more variation seen between the various East Coast Navy Yards that did the mods.

The most common "style" of bulwark which is basically a circle shape and is seen on most destroyer modified after WWII. Here on USS HUNTINGTON (DD-781) in 1947 after WWII.

Image

This less common style type seen on USS DOUGLAS H. FOX (DD-779) in 1951, one of the few SUMNER units modified during WWII, where the bulwark followed the deck edge of the deckhouse all the way aft and ready use ammo cabinets/bins are stowed there.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: DDR 742 USS Frank Knox
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:48 am 
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What measure would Knox have been in late 1945-1946?
Walt


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Depending on how "late" in 1945, USS FRANK KNOX (DD(R)-742) was in Ms 21 while she was with the Pacific Fleet late in the war (was painted as such prior to March 1945) and likely retained that scheme until she returned stateside and went into overhaul in mid-1946. She was painted in I assume Ms 13 (Neutral Haze Gray) when she left overhaul in early September 1946. I don't have any images between July 1945 and September 1946, of her.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Thanks, Rick. That's what I needed. Haven't changed my mind about the '50s era Gearing we discussed- have 2 kits I'm starting work on. Will probably do DD 716.
Walt


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:12 am 
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Does anyone know which was the first Gearing-class destroyer to receive the FRAM IB update that became more or less standard for the class?


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