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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
Model Student,

(I used to be one of those :smallsmile: )

PM me please.

I have four images of ELECTRA, all of which decent quality. I am happy to e-mail them to you. :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:45 am 
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Location: Poland
Hi all :wave_1:
I'm going to DO HMS Echo 1942 in painting B5, MS4, MS1 MS4a or, B5, 507C. Does anyone have any pictures, plans? What was the scope of changes to the pre-war version?
I would be grateful for your help.
Adam Ka


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Echo 30 Aug 1942


Attachments:
Echo k 30 Aug 42.jpg
Echo k 30 Aug 42.jpg [ 13.38 KiB | Viewed 1169 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:25 am 
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Thanks dick
I have exactly this picture and two schemes painting.
That's all for now.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:53 am 
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Project to build Electra and Express in Dec 1941 from the 1/700 Tamiya E Class model and the WEM PE set.

The model shows the destroyers in their pre-way configuration and they both had changes by end 1941 which I have listed below:

Express -
* built as Minelayer so her boat stowage is different with the aft two boats being moved forward to under the bridge wings.
* Carley float rails in aft boat position alongside funnel. Further rails on either side of the rear deckhouse (X turret)
* She had a tripod mast instead of a pole mast for the mainmast.
* In 1940 the aft torpedo tubes were replaqced by a small deckhouse with a 3" AA gun on top in a tub (?) and two 20mm on either side.
* Type 286 at foremast which had a single yard.
* Bridge wings extended into kinked shape with supporting X struts underneath for extra guns but not fitted
* Painted medium grey colour with white pennant number

Questions:
1) By Dec 1941, the mainmast seems to have been removed and a frame structure fitted at the forward end of the searchlight tower. In Nov 1942 photo she is shown with a short stub mast with one yard in this position. Any ideas?
2) I am confused about the stern equipment and think that she retained her High Speed Destroyer Sweeps (TSDS) on the fantail so would have still had the twin davits for this and Depth Charge rails?

Electra -
* Foremast with two yards and type 286 radar between them
* rectangular extended bridge wings but no guns and X supports beneath
* aft torpedo tube removed in 1940 and 3" AA gun added as above
* Aft funnel cut down
* Main mast was a pole originally but by 1941 this had been cut down to a stub with a single yard
* Boat arrangement as designed
* Large box structure with supports on the front of the bridge
* Colour was Western Approaches Scheme

Questions:
1) Same thing about the stern arrangements, were the sweeps still in place or depth charge rails?
2) I have no side views so do not have the arrangement of the Carley floats.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:10 am 
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Chatfield asked about EXPRESS and ELECTRA. LB posted several photos (now removed) of both ships on this thread a few years ago - he may be better placed to comment. My thoughts:

EXPRESS:
Agree with different boat stowage (the foc'sle deck was extended aft a little to allow space for the whalers), the tripod mainmast, bridge wings and foremast.
Never seen a photo with a deckhouse replacing the aft torpedo tubes. All photos I've seen show the usual slightly raised platform (to clear the mounting ring for the torpedo tubes) with the 3" HA gun on it.
By February 1942 she appears to have worn a Western Approaches camouflage scheme - see http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/302386 (if the AWM caption is correct).
The fit aft must have been quite crowded. On the quarterdeck (RN ships didn't have a fantail - that's an word only used by our transatlantic friends! :big_grin: ), as well as "Y" gun mounting (the 4.7" guns were fitted in open shields, not true "turrets"), she had the TSDS fit plus minelaying sponsons (I doubt that the actual rails were still fitted, but that's not impossible), so the davits were there, as were the paravanes and the centreline fitting, with (possibly) a single depth charge rail underneath it, and the TSDS winches were fitted just for'd of "X" gundeck.
(Edit) Taller torpedo davits fitted each side - in order to be able to lift mines onboard, a longer jib section was required, so she and ESK had extended davits from build.

ELECTRA:
Agree with description of foremast, bridge wings, aft TT missing, 3" as above, aft funnel, boats and colour.
Mainmast originally fitted for'd of "X gun had been removed; a shorter mast, with a yard and a gaff, had been added on the searchlight platform.
There was no large box structure with supports on the front of the bridge. What is visible in several photos is the bracket carrying the MF/DF aerial, just above the centre wheelhouse window, with, above it, the housing for the chart table protruding through the for'd screen of the compass platform.
She was fitted with TSDS - the winches on the iron deck just for'd of "X" gundeck and the paravanes remained in place, as did the structure on the centreline and, possibly, a depth charge rail on the quarterdeck. In the only photo I've seen showing this area, it's difficult to make out whether the davits were still in place on the quarters.
The only Carley Float location I can identify is one placed horizontally above the muzzles of the remaining torpedo tubes.


Last edited by tjstoneman on Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:48 pm 
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My thoughts, additional to Tim’s thoughts:

EXPRESS December 1941
3 Oct - 11 Dec 41, medium grey AP 507B overall with white pendant numbers. (If I was modeling her later in December 41, after her period in dock for repairs after the 10 Dec action, I would paint her in the three colour western approaches scheme shown in the Feb 42 AWM photo Tim refers to.)
Her 3” AA gun was shielded (front, top and sides). There were no 20mm either side of it. She had no 20mm in 1941 (and still had none until well into 1942 - June).
Her “bridge wing extensions" were supported by a vertical pole not an X strut.
Aft funnel cut down.
The frame at the forward end of her searchlight position (on which was mounted a short vertical staff to fly the ensign from) remained until the end of her service (and was not replaced with a short stub mast with one yard in 1942).
Stowage for at least 7 carley rafts.
Full TSDS equipment aft as Tim says, and with the single depth charge rail, but without mine rails on 10th Dec.

ELECTRA December 1941:
Three-colour western approaches scheme.
Full TSDS fit (I believe that I can see at least one davit in one particular photo, and the paravanes and winches are definitely there and would be useless without the davits) and single depth charge rail at the stern.
Stowage for at least 4 carley rafts (one flat on the deck just forward of/under B gun barrel on the sloping blast protector, one each side of and with their bottoms against the bridge superstructure under the empty signal deck extensions (lengthwise vertically), and one on the torpedo tubes (as Tim says).
One unshielded 20mm Oerlikon centrally on the light AA platform (ie between the two quad 0.5”s)(!).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Thank you both for this.
To date I have only been able to find one photo of Electra which is the Australian War Memorial one taken from the bow looking aft.
cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Re earlier posts on this thread, the much questioned single 20mm Oerlikon on HMS Electra referred to in the Cain/Sellwood book was mounted centrally on the light AA platfom, ie midway between the two 0.5" quads. It was unshielded which makes it hard to spot.

You can see the safety firing rail, picked out by sunlight, curving around the starboard and forward sides of the Oerlikon, until it goes into shadow over to port, in an aerial photo taken October 1941. You can also see the rail in the November 1941 photo taken from HMS Prince of Wales in the Indian Ocean. I think that you can see the bottom of the Oerlikon pedestal in the photo of Electra rescuing survivors from Repulse.

However I have now come across a photo of a Rosyth dockyard fire practice on the quay alongside “a destroyer”. The destroyer is Electra and in this photo the barrel is visible, vertical. (IWM A 5862). Date must be Aug - Oct 1941 as she is in the WA scheme and has the fixed 286 just above the lower yardarm on the foremast.

I think that we must now accept that the Oerlikon was fitted where and when Cain said: July 1940, Troon.

She was not the only A-I to have a single unshielded Mk 1 Oerlikon fitted on the lt AA platform between the quad 0.5” MGs in 1940. In good quality versions of the photo of HMS Foresight during Op Menace (whilst lowering a boat, with HMS Barham in the background, 24 Sept 1940) it can be seen that she too had one there (unshielded, barrel vertical).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Question about the 3" gun that replaced the aft torpedo tube. How was this mounted, was it a cirular shield with a gun with an enclosing shield? This picture of Express seems to show a different arrangement:
Attachment:
Express Feb 1942 Indian Ocean.jpg
Express Feb 1942 Indian Ocean.jpg [ 11.62 KiB | Viewed 744 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:43 pm 
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I hope that these answer the question re the 3" gun:


Attachments:
Express m jun 1942 crop.jpg
Express m jun 1942 crop.jpg [ 24.12 KiB | Viewed 741 times ]
Express r Nov 1942 crop .jpg
Express r Nov 1942 crop .jpg [ 125.5 KiB | Viewed 741 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:08 am 
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Dick,
thank you for this, you have saved me hours of research.
cheers

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:35 am 
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What colour is the deck in a Western Approaches scheme. My copy of RN Warship Camouflage by Peter Hodges says B30 but WEM says MS2

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:39 am 
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Changed my mind about the bridge wing supports. The Australian War Memorial bow photogrpah seems to show two pole supports whereas I had them down as 'X' supports. Carely floats sit behind these which makes more sense if they are pole supports.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:05 am 
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I assume you mean this photo of Electra?

Attachment:
Electra k November 1941b.jpg
Electra k November 1941b.jpg [ 84.86 KiB | Viewed 499 times ]


Here are a couple more of the area in question.

Attachment:
Electra g bridge detail.JPG
Electra g bridge detail.JPG [ 40.41 KiB | Viewed 499 times ]


Attachment:
Electra h bridge.jpg
Electra h bridge.jpg [ 21.59 KiB | Viewed 499 times ]


Re the colour of the deck, for Electra in 1941, I think we can be sure it was not B30 which was not yet invented then. I guess that Hodges’ comment was based on CB. R 3098/43 (May 1943) which codified things more comprehensively than they had been before. Its predecessor, CAFO 679/42 (9th April 1942), gives no direction for what colour to paint the decks of ships with the Western Approaches scheme. I think you are therefore left with the practice from before then which, as I understand it, means the bare metal areas of her deck would have been painted a medium or dark grey doubtless somewhat weathered in tone. Some areas should have been covered in corticene but that was presumably by then much dirtied and battered. MS2 seems as good a suggestion as any judging by the tone in the photos, but it might have been 507A originally.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:19 am 
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Dick:

Are you sure that the middle photo in your previous post is of HMS Electra? It seems that in that photo, the leading edge of the extended bridge wing is at a swept angle, while in the first and third photos, it is perpendicular to the bridge. Or was its configuration altered during the life of the ship?

Thoughts?

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Mike,

I am absolutely certain it is Electra. You can see the top of the hull pendant numbers in the original photo, also the fixed 286 radar aerial just above the lower yardarm/just below the upper yardarm on the foremast, and this particular design of extension for the 20mm was not common.

I think the effect you see is a trick of the eye. The extensions sloped out downwards viewed from the front. This is disguised in the first ("AWM") photo by the arms of the crewmen but is clearer in this photo.

Attachment:
Electra i  October 1941 (2).jpg
Electra i October 1941 (2).jpg [ 112.76 KiB | Viewed 427 times ]


Best wishes.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Dick:

I think you're right, now that I study the photo.

Trompe L'Oeil as they say!

Thanks for that!

Mike E.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:53 am 
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Has anyone actually completed a model of HMS Electra, depicting her in Dec 1941? If so I'd like to see, so far I've not found anything like plans, pics etc, that show clearly how she was configured.

Things I do know, is that she lost a set of TT in favour of a 3' HA gun, Oerlikon on the searchlight platform possibly and also the bridge wings were enlarged and possibly had single oerlikons in them.

thanks
Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:13 am 
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Hallo all
Thanks to all posters, and a question.
I would like to make an E/F leader, I know the overall dimensions, but where do the extra 14' get used?
The gap between the funnels must be larger - to take the extra 4.7" - and the fo'castle also seems longer, but how much.
I have tried to measure off from the plan in Friedman, but the scales make readings difficult.
Would much appreciate your help

Thanks in advance

Terry


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