The Ship Model Forum

There were six K-Guns on LAFFEY. You can look at photos of WOODWORTH for LAFFEY configuration as well, they were near twin sisters built at the same yard.

As for lockers ... I said they depend on the ship, when you are modeling that ship, and what mods were done where. Lockers vary, check photos.

OK, I could not find an early enough photo of the USS Woodworth in the Benson/Gleaves Warship Pictorial, but I did find four other Benson-class ships, and several Gleaves-class, all with the Depth Charges and K-guns in the same place, three along each side.

bBoth P/S, One each, Fore/Aft of the bulwarks over the aft deckhouse (where the twin 40mms will eventually go), and then one more further aft, adjacent to the 53 turret location (but obviously on the main deck).

In most of the photos, all three locations have a "crane" assembly mounted on the bulkheads or bulwarks above them (a kind of A-frame).

But the PE kit only includes two of these "cranes" and I need 3. I may replace the PE with some cranes scratch-built from .010" or 012" styrene rods (as the cranes look to be built with tube-stock, and not bar-stock).

I had trouble seeing the other Depth Charge locations in the Laffey photos due to the Life-raft racks the separate the Aft Depth Charge locations from the more forward pair (and I could only see the most forward position - looking closely now, though, I can make out the others).

Also.... Is it my imagination, or does the bridge on a Benson/Gleaves-class ship look an AWEFUL LOT LIKE the Bridge on a Fletcher?

The Fletcher bridge has a face that does not have the 02 level bulging out, and both levels of the bridge have a uniform, flush, facing, whereas the Benson/Gleaves bridges have the 02 level that comes a little more forward than the 03 level.

But otherwise, the Bridge Wings look similar.

And the Fletcher itself looks like they took a Benson/Gleaves hull, stretched it about 20 feet, and then just continued the deck from the forecastle back to the stern of the ship in a continuous sweep of a falling sheer line. The deckhouses look remarkably similar as well as the layout of hatches on the deckhouses.

Of course, from reading about the development of the USN DDs, each one was an alteration of the last (with either minor physical alterations of appearance, or major alterations of engineering, reflected in the appearance).

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

I'm on the road and can't post images.

There are images of WOODWORTH earlier in this thread. There is another image of LAFFEY in the JUNEAU discussion.

The "J" shape cranes were removable and stowed away many times.

Yes the bridge design of the Round-Bridge FLETCHERS and the bridges on the SIMS-BENSON-GLEAVES class destroyers were similar. The Flush-Deck hull, power plant, and the superstructure were all new on the FLETCHERS.

At one point the USN "authorized" only four K-Guns on BENSON-GLEAVES class destroyers as weight compensation. But, that never happened on most destroyers, at least for long, particularly in the Atlantic Fleet.

Thanks... I found the Crane parts on both the Plastic Sprue and on the PE Fret.

They are, for Summer-Fall of 1942, 4 "A-frame" Cranes on the bulwarks for the Eventual "Twin 40mm" tubs, and then 4 "J-Cranes" on the after group of Depth Charges.

I have found a few photos of Benson/Gleaves units (only in the Pacific, so far) that had only 4 K-Guns, but ALL of them look to be AFTER the roller racks were installed for the Depth Charges, and all at least mid-1943 or later.

Also.... Something else I noticed about the Benson/Gleaves class (a difference in the Deck Houses on the Main Deck).

• The Forward Deck House on the Gleaves class has the deckhouse going further aft, all the way to the Searchlight Mount (on which the searchlight often isn't placed).

The Gleaves class, as mentioned earlier in the thread, had a different walkway from the roof of the Forward Deckhouse to the Aft Deckhouse. The Walkway looks to be located in different locations depending upon the ship, usually to Port, but sometimes to Starboard, and sometimes near the centerline. But the Walkway is shorter, due to the lengthened Deckhouse, and even when the deckhouse proper isn't lengthened, the roof/decking above the Deckhouse IS lengthened in the Gleaves-class.

On p.19 of the Steve Wiper Warship Pictorial #12: Benson/Gleaves-class Destroyers, the top photo of the USS Gleaves on May 31, 1942 shows an example of this lengthened Foreward Deckhouse; as does p.17, at the bottom of the page of the USS Butler in what looks to be early 1943 (The photo is undated, but it has Roller-racks for the Depth Charges for the K-guns).

• The Aft deckhouse on the Benson-class comes further forward (about 24"), and on MANY units, there is a rounded platform coming off the front of the roof of this deckhouse (where the Searchlight is on some units.

The Photo of the USS Laffey on p.49 of this thread (with Wasp Survivors) shows this extension of the Aft Deckhouse, where a ladder comes up the side of the Deckhouse bulkhead P/S at this location.

The USS Farenholt (April - Aug 1942) on p. 14 of the Warship Pictorial also shows the Aft Deckhouse extension, and rounded platform (The Farenholt does have its Searchlight here.

Pp. 15 - 16 shows the USS Murphy (Aug 1942), USS Frazier, USS Gavesvoort, and USS Gilleespie (No date give, but the 300lb Depth Charges are still on the Arbor-posts) also with the Deckhouse extension, and the circular platform roof extension, even though their Searchlights are mounted in the more "traditional" spot (or, rather, where the kit puts them).

I did make some measurements to see if they hadn't just shifted the bulwarks for the AA guns Aft a bit, but comparisons of distances to the 53 5"/38 mount to the aft end of the AA Gun Bulwarks look to be roughly equal.

Also, if you look at pp.16 & 17, and compare the overhead shots of the Benson-class USS Gavesvoort with the Gleaves-class USS Butler, you can see that the turret is roughly the same distance to the After Control Station, and that the distance from the front of the After Control Bulwark to the rear of the AA gun Bulwarks is the same.


These are all trivial fixes on the kits. I'll get shots posted soon to my WIP thread of the Laffey and Farenholt with these modifications made.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

DAMMIT!

The Early-war 1/700 Benson-class models from Dragon all have the aft deckhouse done wrong.

Every Benson-class ship I have seen has the forward end of the Aft Deckhouse with a ladder going up to the shelter deck on the Aft Deckhouse on the Port Bulkhead (usually on the port, but sometimes to BOTH P/S).

The kits have the AA gun platform on the roof of the Aft Deckhouse coming all the way forward.

Modifying the model isn't that big of an issue (add a 3/64"" shim to the Forward Bulkhead of the Deckhouse, and then trim back the AA platform by 1/64", and that is adequate room for the ladder). The problem I am running into is with the PE for the model.

The Railings come all the way to the bulwarks on the Aft Deckhouse roof for the AA guns. Trimming these will result in one of the supports for the railings being removed, and I am not at all sure how strong a replacement would be (or even what to make one out of).

I have measured some other railings (stock railings), and none seem to fit the space, exactly (what a pain).

One thought/idea I had was to use the stock railings, and to cut off the support standard at the forward end of the railings, which could then be glued to the Aft end of the 20mm tubs to the port-side of the Aft stack.

But that still leaves the inside side of walkway. What do I do about it?

I really want to ask Tim (cadman) why he went with the same Aft Deckhouse for both classes when this is clearly a feature that differed between the two classes.

They made a second Midship Deckhouse that was longer for the Gleaves-class ships. Why could they not alter the Aft Deckhouses for the Benson-class? At most this would have been a slightly thicker forward bulkhead on the Aft Deckhouse, and then a shifting of the Bulwarks for the AA guns on the Shelter Deck.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

You're talking about parts C48 or C58? http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... age-04.jpg

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No, those are for the Gleaves-class ships.

The kit has no corresponding parts for the Benson-class As Built. The equivalent parts would be C-29/54 for the Benson-class.

But the parts are not correct for this class, because the AA Bulwarks on this part sit flush with the forward bulkhead of the deckhouse, when they should be shifted aft roughly 28" - 36"

I will have some WIP shots of the corrected Deckhouses soon to illustrate the differences.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Ah okay this one: http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... age-04.jpg

Maybe the spacing was not available within moulding limits - 28" works out to about 1mm, which is pretty close to the thickness of that splinter shield.

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I took a look at the photo of the USS Laffey with the Wasp survivors.

And looking at the gap in this photo, compared to the depth Charges, it looks like the gap is closer to 36".

I added a .0125" thick shim to the forward end of the deckhouse (and cut out the indentation at the aft so that the deckhouse will fit), and then cut back the platform for the Splinter shield Bulwarks so that there is 1.25mm of P/S Bulkhead exposed.

I also have cut out some tiny circles with a hole punch that is the same size as the searchlight platform (and I will cut off approximately 90º of arc to glue onto the front of the Deckhouse).

Again, looking at the Warship Pictorial #12: Benson/Gleaves-class Destroyers and the images of this Deckhouse on ALL of the Bensons pre-1943 (and most Post-1943, just with a slightly different shape) they have a space on the forward end of the Shelter deck, in front of the Bulwarks, for the Searchlight (whether it is mounted there or not - it is on the Farenholt... and a few other ships - but not on the Laffey, where it is in its normal spot).

So... I nearly have that finished. When I get the work cleaned up, I will put it in my WIP thread.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

I need some photos of the early Benson/Gleaves Mainmasts (1942).

The Masts look to have several different configurations for 1942.

Specifically I am looking for Laffey, Farenholt, Livermore, Monssen, Lansdowne, and Buchanan in 1942.... Mainmasts.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Matthew,

First a little education on ship nomenclature, although not always stated that way and may not make sense the "Mainmast" is the rear mast of the ship if there are two masts. The forward mast, normally behind the bridge, is the "Foremast". Even though it may not look like it, the BENSON-GLEAVES class destroyers had a short mainmast, normally called a stub mast, but was more noticeable when the HF-DF antenna was installed. In any case it is common practice on destroyers to call the principle mast on the forward part of the ship the "Foremast" to avoid confusion with units that DO have two masts. So I'm not sure which mast you are looking for detailed images of, but will guess it is the "Foremast".

Your list of destroyers breaks down to two groups;

The Original GLEAVES class (and could apply to the six Original BENSON class) units;

USS LIVERMORE (DD-429) (didn't serve in the Pacific until late in the war)
USS MONSSEN (DD-436)

The Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES class units;

USS LAFFEY (DD-459)
USS FARENHOLT (DD-491)
USS LANSDOWNE (DD-486)
USS BUCHANAN (DD-484)

Each represents slightly different yet common mast configurations as time went on. The original BENSON-GLEAVES class units were built without radar and had crows nests and had radars (FD and/or SC) added starting in September 1941 over quite a period of time as equipment was made available and a yard period was arranged. So for the Original units it depends on WHEN you are looking at a unit as to what radars it had. This is just as true for the four GLEAVES class units of DesDiv 22 in the Pacific ... some had SC (SC-1) radar but no FD radar, some had both.

The Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES class units were completed with radars, with only FD and SC at first and units completed later in late 1942 with the SG radar. Units were upgraded with SG radar when they returned to a yard for an overhaul or major repairs. Also, of note, the "stovepipe" BL IFF antenna was installed on many units in the South Pacific. Exactly when the BL IFF system was installed needs work to ID based on photos.

USS MONSSEN and LAFFEY were lost before ever getting the SG radar installed.

The others were upgraded with SG radars starting in early 1943.

Here are some representative images. Many of these images are available in the Classic Warships WP-12 book.

Also note other features like fighting lights and other radio antennas that can differ from one destroyer to another.

Here is a view of USS MONSSEN's foremast as completed ... 16 May 1941 ... no radars and a crows nest.



Here is the best view I have of MONSSEN during her time in the Pacific ... 19 May 1942 ... SC and FD radars, but no BL IFF (? could be on starboard yardarm) or SG radar



Here is a view of USS LAFFEY ... 4 September 1942 ... showing an SC-1 and FD radars only



Here is USS FARENHOLT in the South Pacific (?) as seen from USS WASP ... 24 August 1942 ... What is strange is that she does NOT have an SC-1 radar installed. Not sure why and this isn't a censored photo. I actually wonder if the date is accurate and shows her earlier during Shakedown training with USS WASP in the Atlantic. You can see that the foundation for the antenna is installed, so only a return to a yard would finish the install. I can't believe that she would have gone without her SC-1 while in the Pacific.



Here is a view of USS FARENHOLT after repairs and modifications at Pearl Harbor ... 8 February 1943 ... she has had the SG radar installed and the BL IFF stovepipe antenna is mounted on the centerline of the foremast well below the SG radar.



Here is a view of USS LANSDOWNE as completed at NYNY ... 27 June 1942 ... only the SC-1 and FD radars installed



Here is a view of LANSDOWNE after an overhaul and alterations at MINY ... 13 April 1943 ... she has had the SG radar and stovepipe BL IFF (on starboard yardarm) antennas installed



Here is a view of USS BUCHANAN ... 24 August 1943 ... even at this date, she still doesn't have a SG radar installed but does have a stovepipe BL antenna (installed on port yardarm)

No.... I understood...

It's the "Mainmast" (the Aft One) I needed images of.

Mostly for the apparatus that hung the flag.

But also because a few of them look to have some strange components on them from 1941 - 1942 (such as Tripod Legs).

BUT....

That said.... The Images of the Foremasts were helpful to. They answered some questions I didn't even know that I had.

And may raise more questions As I study them more.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

The mainmast on the BENSON-GLEAVES units in the Pacific during 1942-43 were mostly needed to support the radio leads. Also, it was used as a flag pole and to mount the trailing light. I have read some discussion in BuShip files about these mainmasts had problems blocking AA fire and interference with the searchlight locations, relocated fire control directors, etc. They seemed to get simplified as the war went on.

Construction of these masts varied. LAFFEY had a pretty substantial mast as did other "Bethlehem-built units". Other units used a lighter weight mast with stays and/or one or two braces to support it. Some units adapted a lighter weight mast during overhauls. It does seem that as built units had mainmasts according to what their builder had designed. I had to downsize these images ... Photobucket and Modelwarships were NOT working together for some reason.

The Bethlehem early "style" mainmast was a single heavy pole;

On USS LAFFEY ... 16 September 1942



And on USS FARENHOLT retained hers even after being upgraded with twin 40-mm mounts ... 22 May 1944



The Federal early "style" mainmast used a single centerline brace pointed forward and two stays

on USS BUCHANAN ... 26 May 1942



and on USS LANSDOWNE ... 27 June 1942



USS MONSSEN (and other units in DesDiv 22) had a different type of mast installed after they had the original searchlight tower cutdown. I couldn't find a good image of the mainmast of MONSSEN, but here is an excellent image of the mast on USS GRAYSON with a lighter weight mast with two braces to the aft.

Yesss! Good! Good!


Thank you, Rick.

That was exactly what I was looking for.

I only have some minor surgery to do on a couple of the Mainmasts. And the Mainmasts on the Laffey/Farenholt look to be almost identical for the Late-1942 image I have of the Farenholt.

Now I need to go back through the thread to dig up which Benson/Gleaves units were in the Pacific and When (I know the Eight I am doing were in the Pacific in Oct-Nov, but I would like to do ALL that were in the Pacific from Aug. - Dec. '42).

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Matthew,

I don't know how many more variants there are to the mainmasts of other BENSON-GLEAVES units. I just addressed the ones you listed. To be honest, the mainmasts on this dual-class are something I have not been tracking, except for the Atlantic Fleet units that had the HF-DF antennas installed and the handful of BENSON-GLEAVES that had RCM antenna masts installed.

Eventually I am going to need information on the McCalla, Duncan, and Aaron Ward, and the Barton?

I know that the Barton is a Repeat-Benson. And the other three are Repeat-Gleaves.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16

Hi all,

Just curious, have any drawings of Farenholt's unique 1943 bridge surfaced? I know pics of it have been posted here in this thread earlier.

Many thanks,

Bob

I have not tried to look at NARA to see if there are ship plans of her showing the unique bridge. But, I think chances are slim to none that there will be drawings there showing details of this bridge. It was a non-standard configuration done at PHNY and was removed during her April-May 1944 overhaul.

The best you can do is "eyeball" the bridge area and the "clipping room" under the forward centerline 20-mm platform from the photos.

Thanks. I was hoping... That's just such a unique look that I really want to model it!

Bob

Rick has some additional shots of Aaron Ward, which was also redone at Pearl with a similar bridge set up. Perhaps those photos might give you something useful.