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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:30 pm 
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I notice in the on board photos of the Aaron Ward and Lansdowne posted above that the camouflage scheme has been carried onto the interior surfaces of the splinter shields. Was this standard practice with the Ms 12 scheme or was is done on a ship by ship or yard by yard basis?

BTW, I still have a copy of the Classic warships Benson/Gleaves book for sale if anyone wants it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:58 pm 
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PeteM wrote:
I notice in the on board photos of the Aaron Ward and Lansdowne posted above that the camouflage scheme has been carried onto the interior surfaces of the splinter shields. Was this standard practice with the Ms 12 scheme or was is done on a ship by ship or yard by yard basis?


This is something that Rick Davis and I discussed a while ago. We kind of figured that since the instructions indicated ALL vertical surfaces, that was exactly what was done. Besides, with the ships pitching and rolling, the interior surfaces of the tubs would probably be visible from time to time. These are not the only examples we have seen of the camo on the inside of the tubs.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:47 pm 
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On the design sheet for MS 32/3d for the Buckley class, there is a note that says paint all splinter shield inside vertical surfaces Ocean Grey, so this might be applied to whatever scheme you guys are doing, too.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:43 am 
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Location: Germany;Bavaria; Waldkraiburg
Hi Guys,

I build 2 of the Dragon Buchanan, a 42 and a 45 variant. Don´t want to change it to another ship of the class, but have some questions about the Buchanan.
To compare with the model , the portholes where nearly all closed. Does anybody have information , which where closed and when it happened?
Is there any reference which shows detailed rigging of the Buchanan, because rigging seems to be not equal on every ship of the class?
Thanks for help,

Best regards from Bavaria

Marc


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:45 am 
PeteM wrote:
I notice in the on board photos of the Aaron Ward and Lansdowne posted above that the camouflage scheme has been carried onto the interior surfaces of the splinter shields. Was this standard practice with the Ms 12 scheme or was is done on a ship by ship or yard by yard basis?

BTW, I still have a copy of the Classic warships Benson/Gleaves book for sale if anyone wants it.


It's definite that the Kearny built ships from 483-490 had that feature to their camouflage. I haven't seen it often on other ships or ship types though. More often you see the inner faces of splinter shields painted 20B, especially on the cruisers and BB's with 5"-25 open mounts.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:43 am 
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mw 1378 wrote:
Does anybody have information , which where closed and when it happened?


The port holes were plated over before she left for war. The port holes are left open as that hull is used for other members of the class that had them open.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:46 am 
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mw 1378 wrote:
Is there any reference which shows detailed rigging of the Buchanan, because rigging seems to be not equal on every ship of the class?


There are plenty of pictures in the Classic Warships Benson/Gleaves photo album. Also Steve Wiper has announced a book on the Buchanan herself that should help. There are some subtle differences in rigging, but most ships had a very similar layout. That is something I have considered adding to my 3D models when I have time.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:39 am 
See Model Ship builder magazine No 28 for complete set of detailed drawings for the long wire antenna arrangement. Drawings are for McCalla, but are identical to that on the Buchanan.
Ask somebody to make a copy for you.


Cadman wrote:
mw 1378 wrote:
Is there any reference which shows detailed rigging of the Buchanan, because rigging seems to be not equal on every ship of the class?


There are plenty of pictures in the Classic Warships Benson/Gleaves photo album. Also Steve Wiper has announced a book on the Buchanan herself that should help. There are some subtle differences in rigging, but most ships had a very similar layout. That is something I have considered adding to my 3D models when I have time.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:42 pm 
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Thanks a lot, will help to build this nice model.

Best regards,

Marc


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:42 pm 
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If anyone has a copy of the Model Ship Builder with the above mentionrd rigging diagram I would really appreciate their "sharing" this with us. I have a plan of the Aaron Ward with pretty good detail, but the rigging ,particularly the details of the connections to decks and bulkheads, is somewhat obscure.

Regards, Walt Haynes


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:32 pm 
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AR with your permission I can post these here.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:50 am 
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Would be very very good. I ordered already the warhip pictorial, but model ship builder seems to be not available in Germany.

Best regards
Marc


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:45 am 
Dear Mr Dike,
Feel free.
If Model ship Builder is no longer in business, and with the articles on the McCalla being twenty five years old, perhaps it is possible to post ALL ten parts here? Even after this span of time, some of the information may still be of value.
I am not an expert in copyright so perhaps somebody can state if this is possible.

Cadman wrote:
AR with your permission I can post these here.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:34 pm 
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Thanks to all of you for the contributions to this forum. It has really helped me a lot. I hate to ask for more, but, as an armor modeler I am a little short on ship resources. I would like to modify one of these wonderful Gleaves DDs to represent one of the square bridge boats that were built at Seattle/Tacoma and were at Normandy. Can anyone direct me to some good on line info that would give me a good look at what the bridges looked like, the major modifications to these boats and the paint they had? Thank you in advance for helping out a treadhead!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:56 pm 
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Dan,

I assume you are planning on doing some scratch building, because no one I'm aware of has yet produced after market parts for a Square-Bridge Gleaves. The Square-Bridge isn't anything like the bridge used on Fletchers or any other ship I can think of. If you are going to scratch-built a Square-Bridge, I think that drawings are going to be necessary and I don't know of a source off the top of my head. I don't have a list handy of the units of the Square-Bridge sub-group that were at Normandy to hunt down specific ships. I'm not sure of the camo scheme used on specific ships during Normandy for this class. From about September-October 1942 until at various points in 1944 ... most ships were painted in Ms-22. In mid to late 1944 many units were painted in a Dazzle scheme.

Anyway here are a few example photos of the unique configuration details of the Square-Bridge Gleaves units. For reference: DD493-497 and DD624-628 were built by Seattle-Tacoma SB and DD618-623 and DD645-648 (the last four were built to a modified armament configuration amidships) were Federal SB built units.

The first image is of Carmick (DD-493) as completed with four 20-mm guns. Eventually three more 20-mm guns were added. Without out the elevated centerline platform for another 20-mm gun ... you can see bridge front details.

The next two images are of Thompson (DD-627) on 25 January 1944. She was a Seattle-Tacoma SB built unit. This should be the "standard" configuration for units at Normandy. Note how the amidships 20-mm guns are grouped compared to earlier Round-Bridge units. An extra pair of 20-mm guns were added there because they could not install the 20-mm guns in the bridge wings.

The fourth image is of Nelson (DD-623) in December 1945 after she had been upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze mod in the summer of 1945. The elevated centerline platform and single 20-mm gun were removed and the two single 20-mm mounts on the 02 deck before the bridge were replaced with twin mounts. This image is useful because it is a close-up view of the Square-Bridge and besides ... I liked the Anti-Kamikaze mod. :smallsmile:

The fifth image is of McCook (DD-496) in March 1944. This photo is about as close to the date to the Normandy invasion that I have readily available. As you can see, she is painted in Ms-22.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:09 am 
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Rick,
Thanks for the fast reply! Your detail photos were more than I expected. I am going to try and do the Frankford, DD 497. I realize that it will require some scratch building but I do have experience with that and I should be able to do my own drawings for the bridge mods. I don't expect to capture all the details but I wanted it a little closer than what comes in the kit, especially the bridge area as that is one detail that really identifys a Sea/Tac ship. I am going to use the 1945 version of Dragons kit with the new Gold Medals set. Again, thank you for your help!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Dan,

Good luck with your Frankford (DD-497) project. The only photos of Frankford that I found in the NARA BuShips photo files were of her in 1945 after her post Anti-Kamikaze mod. Here is one of the images ... forgive the miss spelling of her name ... scanning and typing notes on a few hundred images at a time gets to become a blur. Many times the original envelopes/back of photos have names, etc. miss spelled and I blindly type what is on it without checking or thinking. Anyway, this view shows the bridge nicely, but without the centerline elevated platform. The second image at about the same aspect, is of Harding (DD-625), a sister with the centerline platform. (I kind of question the February 1944 date provided on the back of the original photo ... there was also a series of photos dated December 1943 that look to be about the same. But, the dates are close enough that it doesn't matter much.) I would like to post a direct overhead view for you (and myself) of this bridge, but I don't have any.

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:52 pm 
Interesting view showing the FH4 on the foremast. I don't believe that many of the class had this?
Perhaps David Baker can confirm.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:24 pm 
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I can not put a number to how many Benson-Gleaves units had the RD/RF gear at the foremast. I believe this was common on DE's. In a quick survey, I found at least one other ship so configured, Herndon (DD-638) in October 1943 (see attached image). As you can see she was also one of the units equipped with Mousetrap. I'm sticking my neck out here, but I would guess that maybe only one ship out of a DesDiv or DesRon would have been so equipped and then only on those ships NOT expected to be engaging enemy aircraft. I didn't see any ships of the class assigned to the Pacific so equipped and believe it would be limited to ships assigned primarily to ASW duties. May have only been an experiment of sorts. The photos I have found of the Benson-Gleaves class are kind of spotty in coverage, but most seem to have had an Air Search radar installed. Herndon was completed with an Air Search radar before getting RD/RF gear. New York Navy Yard was pretty good at taking photos of mods ... but not of EVERYTHING done. Norfolk Navy Yard photos are sparse and Boston is so/so.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:40 pm 
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Found another ship with RD/RF gear at the foremast ... Kendrick (DD-612) departing Boston in April 1943. (Steve Wiper has the same photo I have in his book on page 35) This is not the greatest detailed image, but you can see the gear at the mast head.

Kendrick (DD-612) was assigned to DesDiv 31, DesRon 16

Herndon (DD-638) was assigned to DesDiv 34, DesRon 17

Harding (DD-625) was assigned to DesDiv 36, DesRon 18

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