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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:26 pm 
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Thanks. I was hoping... That's just such a unique look that I really want to model it!

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:17 pm 
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Rick has some additional shots of Aaron Ward, which was also redone at Pearl with a similar bridge set up. Perhaps those photos might give you something useful.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:57 pm 
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Here is another photo of USS BARTON (DD-599) at the Battle of Santa Cruz on 26 October 1942 from a series of photos taken from USS NORTHAMPTON and in the Santa Cruz Action Report as she picks up USS HORNET survivors. This pretty clearly shows her starboard side Ms 12R/mod pattern applied at BosNY during her fitting-out.

Along with the view posted by Martin Q via Fred B earlier ... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=24483&start=940#p672829 ... this side of the ship is pretty well covered. This "new" image" shows parts of her hull camo pattern hidden by waves in the other photo.

Image

The poorer quality image show posted by me earlier ... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=24483&start=880#p598914 ... shows her portside camo pattern.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:28 am 
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I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out what is represented by parts A4, E5, E3 in the Dragon 1/350 Laffey DD-459 kit. Whatever these are, sit in tubs just forward of the quad Bofors/Oerlikan on top of the aft deck house. Thanks for any help. I'm trying to figure out how to position/paint them.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:01 pm 
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They're Mk.51 directors.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:02 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:
They're Mk.51 directors.


Thank you!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:21 pm 
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The Mk 51 directors should not be used with the quad 1.1-in mounts except for some Atlantic Fleet BENSON-GLEAVES class units equipped with Mk 51 directors prior to Operation Torch. There is no photographic evidence that any of the Pacific Fleet quad 1.1-in mount equipped units had a Mk 51 director installed. But, it is possible that the Pacific Fleet units that didn't get upgraded with 40-mm guns until late 1943 or after had a Mk 51 director installed. If you do install a Mk 51 director with a quad 1.1-in mount, just install ONE before the mount, NOT two like shown in the instructions.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
The Mk 51 directors should not be used with the quad 1.1-in mounts except for some Atlantic Fleet BENSON-GLEAVES class units equipped with Mk 51 directors prior to Operation Torch. There is no photographic evidence that any of the Pacific Fleet quad 1.1-in mount equipped units had a Mk 51 director installed. But, it is possible that the Pacific Fleet units that didn't get upgraded with 40-mm guns until late 1943 or after had a Mk 51 director installed. If you do install a Mk 51 director with a quad 1.1-in mount, just install ONE before the mount, NOT two like shown in the instructions.


It's a shame they missed that. I'm a bit too far along to try and patch the holes easily. I've done basically all painting and am about the add the railing. I'll have to think about this a bit.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:43 pm 
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Some of the Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES units with a quad 1.1-in mount (on the starboard side) and a single 20-mm in the other "tub" (portside) had a ammo cabinet with ready service roughly where the director was suppose to go on that side. The cabinet was bigger than the "low-boy" boxes generally used. You could add that, depending on which units you are building. Or not worry about it.

Here is a photo of one of the units that was involved with Operation Torch with both a Mk 51 director and a 20-mm ready service cabinet.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:00 am 
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Rick, do you know which Gleaves unit that is in the above Photo???

MB

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:51 pm 
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I'm certain the destroyer was USS MACOMB (DD-458) because I came across this photo of an "unnamed" destroyer in the 80-G collection at NARA in a sequence of photos that showed the hull number in the others. The photo was taken by USS SANTEE (CVE-29) while MACOMB was alongside her and dated 6 November 1942.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:25 am 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Some of the Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES units with a quad 1.1-in mount (on the starboard side) and a single 20-mm in the other "tub" (portside)


How late in the war did ships keep the quad 1.1's before being replaced by Bofors? Did any 1.1's see out the war?

If I am not mistaken DD483 USS Aaron Ward had the same / similar setup as photo in above post, and then after her punch up on night 13th Nov. 1942 went back stateside and was fitted with two twin Bofors which of course she carried when sunk on April 7th 1943, as can be seen in attached photos. Photo #1 was taken in mid/late 90's - several years before #2 and #3 (2001 if I recall) - and shows them still upright. I believe they are now both either laying on her deck, or laying on the seabed. Time takes its toll!


Attachments:
Bofors-USS-Aaron-Ward-DD483 - #1.jpg
Bofors-USS-Aaron-Ward-DD483 - #1.jpg [ 92.45 KiB | Viewed 2060 times ]
Bofors-USS-Aaron-Ward-DD483-#2.jpg
Bofors-USS-Aaron-Ward-DD483-#2.jpg [ 87.83 KiB | Viewed 2060 times ]
Bofors-USS-Aaron-Ward-DD483-#3.jpg
Bofors-USS-Aaron-Ward-DD483-#3.jpg [ 97.68 KiB | Viewed 2060 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:15 am 
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There were about 26 BENSON-GLEAVES class units that had a quad 1.1-in mount during the war. None had them at the end of the war.

Two of the Original BENSON-GLEAVES had a "Temporary" quad 1.1-in mount installed that wasn't replaced until early in 1944 after battle damage suffered off Italy; USS MAYO (DD-422) and USS PLUNKETT (DD-431).

About twenty-four (exact number is blurred by the change over to two twin 40-mm mounts when some units completed/commissioned with a quad 1.1-in mount, but quickly were upgraded by the USN.

The eleven units assigned to the Atlantic Fleet with the quad 1.1-in mounts (DD454-458, 461-464, 632, and 640*) mostly were upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts as they returned from operations/convoy escorting after Operation Torch in December 1942-January 1943.

The thirteen units sent to the Pacific Fleet with the quad 1.1-in mounts (DD459-460, 483-488, 491-492, 598-599, and 605*) generally kept their quad 1.1-in mounts longer that the Atlantic Fleet units. Units in the Pacific didn't get back to West Coast or PHNY yards often enough to get upgraded unless repair of battle damage or some other serious repairs were required.

Two of the units above marked with an "*" were delivered with a quad 1.1-in mount installed but were upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts soon after before going to a War Zone.

Three units were lost prior to having a chance to be upgraded with 40-mm mounts (DD459, 485, and 599).

Six the Pacific units were upgraded in early-mid 1943; three at PHNY (DD483, 487, and 491). These three were modified in certain areas that was different than the "official" standard. As you say, ARRON WARD was lost after being upgraded, but at PHNY not the West Coast. Three others were upgraded at MINY or elsewhere (DD486, 492, and 598)

The last three upgraded were; DD-488 at MINY in December 1943, DD-460 and DD-484 at MINY in May-June 1944.

Excuse me if I missed one or two here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:51 am 
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Thanks for the update Rick. And yes, your excused if you missed one or two. :cool_2:

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:19 am 
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I was wondering if any of you experts could help with a question. I'm wondering if USS Laffey DD-459 should have floater baskets or not on the after tower. The only pictures I'm finding of that area on google (linked below) don't seem to show the baskets. Any thoughts?

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303 ... es0xra.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0545903.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:58 pm 
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It doesn't look like she has any Floater Net Baskets installed.

The USN operational commands bounced back and forth on installing Floater Net Baskets on ships in 1942. At various times they had baskets installed on 01 deck and above out of the way, but complaints that they wouldn't be of use from up there. That resulted in a period of when extra rafts were installed (USS LAFFEY has at least ten installed) along with Floater Net "Bundles" along the main deck railing. But, experience was that the nets in that location had a tendency to become a problem in unraveling and cluttering up the deck during action and bad weather. So, eventually the baskets were adapted and the number of life rafts reduced.

Given when USS LAFFEY was completed and sent off to war, she fell into the period when baskets weren't viewed favorably and I don't see floater net bundles, but those can be hard to spot in distant photos.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:19 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
It doesn't look like she has any Floater Net Baskets installed.

The USN operational commands bounced back and forth on installing Floater Net Baskets on ships in 1942. At various times they had baskets installed on 01 deck and above out of the way, but complaints that they wouldn't be of use from up there. That resulted in a period of when extra rafts were installed (USS LAFFEY has at least ten installed) along with Floater Net "Bundles" along the main deck railing. But, experience was that the nets in that location had a tendency to become a problem in unraveling and cluttering up the deck during action and bad weather. So, eventually the baskets were adapted and the number of life rafts reduced.

Given when USS LAFFEY was completed and sent off to war, she fell into the period when baskets weren't viewed favorably and I don't see floater net bundles, but those can be hard to spot in distant photos.


Thank you for the information and confirming my interpretation of those photos.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:34 am 
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I thought that the Floater-net Baskets were late-war things?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:02 am 
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No, as I said there was a back and forth about the use of the baskets in mid-late 1942 into early 1943. The first Federal-built FLETCHERS (DD-445, 446, 447, and 448) were fitted with floater net baskets made with wood slats by the NYNY installed at least fore and aft on the searchlight platform. The next Federal-built unit (DD-465) now with the lower 40-mm installation between 53 and 54 mounts also had them installed, but subsequent units didn't until the dispute was resolved. Meanwhile, the initial BIW-built unit (DD-449) was fitted out WITHOUT floater net baskets on the searchlight platform, but had them along the 01 deck level in a few places. The next few BIW-built units appear to not have them. But, close-up photos in the South Pacific show they used floater net "bundles" along the main and 01 deck railings. In many photos it is real hard to spot floater net bundles.

By sometime in early 1943, the use of metal floater net baskets was common. Prior to that photos show almost twice as many raft floats being used than would be common later. (I have not tried to determine when the switch over happened and for some units it seems the ship's CO continued to use extra life rafts rather than install baskets)

For specific destroyers during specific periods of the war, study of photos is required.


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zDD445xfloaternetbasket-15Jul42.jpg
zDD445xfloaternetbasket-15Jul42.jpg [ 189.09 KiB | Viewed 1655 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:47 am 
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That's on a Fletcher-Class, though, isn't it, and not a Benson/Gleaves unit???

:scratch:

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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