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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:03 am 
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Hi all,
I'm currently in the process of researching for my next project. I have planed to build HMS Hesperus as she appeared in 1940 with a wonderful dazzle paint work.
The thing is,that there only seems to be 2 or 3 low pictures of her.

Could anyone find the proper colours of the Hesperus i this time period.

I think that one colour is probably 507c, but I have no clue of the other.

Could anyone help?

Thanks

JH

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:14 am 
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JH

This 1940-41 Dazzle scheme consisted of MS1, MS3 & 507c according to Alan Raven Camo Vol1 p55.

I actually think Alan got Hesperus H57 slightly wrong, but thats just my opinion against the world leading expert on RN WW2 camouflage.
I believe it was 4 colours and not 3.
I believe she was 507c base hull colour and then the panels consisted of the darkest (almost black) MS1, the next lighter shade (which appears blue) is either MS2 or B5 and then the lightest panel (which appears green) is MS3 or even Green (1940).
My evidence for this is I have a collection of many things which Alan has never seen and thats what I base this statement on.

Furthermore my great Uncle was on Havelock H88, a sister ship to Hesperus H57 and they operated together for large parts of the early war period.
These 'Brazilian H's' generally all received this 1940 Dazzle scheme on completion in 1940 and naturally I've studied these 6 ships quite a bit because of the family connection.

Hopefully Alan might come in on this and either put me straight or reveal his evidential sources.

Regards
LB

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Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:09 am 
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Stated as so,

Please can you comment on Hesperus camouflage.
You can either put me straight or wish to see my evidence:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4764&start=45

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Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:59 am 
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JH

Alan Raven also states the following:

"1940 DAZZLE TYPE

Semi-official in origin.
First example believed to he carried by (GREENVILLE in January, 1940. Used by several ships during Norwegian campaign, including two of the (County class heavy cruisers and destroyers of the Brazilian ”H” class from 1940 until some time in 1942.
Colors used: 507A, 507C, MS 1, MS 3, and White.
Decks: As peacetime.
Topmasts: White.
Countershading: Worn on certain ships, but not used generally."


Correction above should read Grenville and I still hold my 4 colour interpretation for Hesperus

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:23 am 
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Thanks Laurence.

The help is highly appriciated.

Cheers

Jens

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:14 pm 
I begin by sayong that I am NOT an expert, just a model maker.

I know of eleven destroyers painted in what could be decribed as 'Dazzle' during the 1940/1 period. *

They are:-
Grenville
Griffon
Codrington
A class destroyer, name unknown. **
Hesperus
Highlander
Hurricane
Harvester
Havelock
Havant of the repeat 'H' class was sunk without receiving Dazzle camouflage.
An I class destroyer; Impulsive or Icarus or Intrepid. **
Badsworth.

On the Hesperus, I was informed many years ago (I think by Macintyre) that the medium tone was MS3, however I was recently sent a very good quality colour photo of her taken in 1941 which clearly shows that the medium colour is medium grey.

Before his death, Norman Wilkonson stated that TWO of the ships that were painted in Dazzle, used blue as the medium tone, but which two ships he was unable to say.

* This list is probably incomplete.

** No pendant numbers worn, hence the reason for being unable to identify.

I hope that this is of some help.




Laurence Batchelor wrote:
JH

This 1940-41 Dazzle scheme consisted of MS1, MS3 & 507c according to Alan Raven Camo Vol1 p55.

I actually think Alan got Hesperus H57 slightly wrong, but thats just my opinion against the world leading expert on RN WW2 camouflage.
I believe it was 4 colours and not 3.
I believe she was 507c base hull colour and then the panels consisted of the darkest (almost black) MS1, the next lighter shade (which appears blue) is either MS2 or B5 and then the lightest panel (which appears green) is MS3 or even Green (1940).
My evidence for this is I have a collection of many things which Alan has never seen and thats what I base this statement on.

Furthermore my great Uncle was on Havelock H88, a sister ship to Hesperus H57 and they operated together for large parts of the early war period.
These 'Brazilian H's' generally all received this 1940 Dazzle scheme on completion in 1940 and naturally I've studied these 6 ships quite a bit because of the family connection.

Hopefully Alan might come in on this and either put me straight or reveal his evidential sources.

Regards
LB


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:28 pm 
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Ah ha that adds a little more meat on the bones, thank you.
You maybe a model maker but you are THE person in the world that has researched and published on this field, in depth, so I'm afraid my original tag sticks.
I suppose it comes with the territory.
Right then to discuss some of the points you raise.

On Hesperus I too have seen the same colour photo, which I must say is one of the clearest I've seen of an RN warship in WW2.
I've zoomed in on the panels and the medium colour to me seems too blue for medium grey.
This could be a trick of the strong sunlight or the weakness of using colour photography from WW2 as the film doesn't accurately reproduce actual reality?
If I were give it a name I would say it looks marine blue in normal paint name terms and going by your colour chart B5 looks the closest match.
MS3 looks to be the lighest panel (green) to me and B5 (blue/grey) the medium one.
Hesperus could therefore be one of the 2 ships Wilkonson refers to as blue as the medium tone.
Do you agree though that in Vol1 it states 3 colours overall, which seems wrong as we can now see it was 4 colours - base hull grey and 3 different panel colours, dark grey (MS1) Blue (B5) & Green (MS3) would be my closest interpretation.
Vol1 p11 you state Hurricane was Black, 507B & 507c panels so the colourisation varied ship-to-ship? or is this wrong and it was black, blue/grey and green across each of these destroyers in this unofficial dazzle scheme?

I agree on Havant, I have 3 photos taken of her during 1940.
1) on trials 2) & 3) On way to Dunkirk & at Dover and she is grey overall heavily weathered.
Badsworth in this scheme was heavily photographed, but her panels seem all dark and uniformly one colour and of course you have it on Vol1 p55.
I don't have photos of Grenville, Griffon, Codrington FL, or the unamed 'A' class destroyer in these dazzle schemes.
So I guess the hunting will continue for me there to fill that gap!
On the I-class I have a photo of one of them in the scheme, but I could not identify which ship, I could not make out a pennant number and the photo is poor.
Though I have in my notes Impulsive was a ship that wore this dazzle scheme.

Were you ever able to tie down where this origins of the thinking behind this scheme came from?
Or perhaps out of what dockyards or bases these ships were all operating from or perhap visited in 1940/41.
I could perhaps track your named vessels in the pink lists I have and look for correlation.
I know for a fact Havelock for instance had the scheme by the time she reached Norway in May 1940.
She commissioned in Feb 1940 so that leaves a small window of around 3 months whilst operating in the Home Fleet when this scheme would have been applied.
It would seem to this eye that it was quite radical for an early 1940 scheme; was only applied destroyers; and as we can see was applied to the latest ones to commission into the RN at that time, but also some longer commissioned destroyers got it also.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:28 am 
Will look into references as to exactly who put this scheme forward, either way it was directly inspired by Wilkinson's dazzle designs.
See photos of Badsworth in Man O War, showing her as completed in the three colour design.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:05 pm 
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Let's get this back to a modelling thread instead of yet another camouflage related discussion.

So let's have a roll call of current or planned models, me (all 1:700, all planned) -

HMS Hurricane 1940 from B Resina HMS Hero
HMS Kandahar 1941 from HP J class
HMS Aylmer 1944 from Niko Gendreau
HMS ? S class from HP kit, not decided which one yet.


Mike

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:14 am 
I like all Hm destroyers specially H -Class.I send some interesting photos.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:45 am 
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I have a B-Resina kit I plan to do as HMS Hurricane in the scheme shown in the first photo you posted, when I get round to it!

Mike

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:22 pm 
Two new photos ex -brasillian destroyers.I don.t know names ships.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:08 am 
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Dear Palco,

Thank you for posting these photogaphs, though sadly I have them all.
These second shots your post I believe are Havelock H88 before she had her pennant number allocated and painted up.
There was only 2 destroyers with that type of 1940 dazzle scheme in Norwegian waters at that time and I feel the most likely is Havelock as I have other photos showing that she did complete with a rudementary fire control and the original planned tripod mainmast and no pennant number which is shown there.
I believe the photos were taken in May 1940.

My great uncle was on her at this time (Feb 1940-1942) and around this same time of these photos she had a French Mortar temporarily fitted to her forecastle and some French Foreign Legion on board.
He use to tell me stories how in the fjords they were constantly being hit by German snipers who they had to try and locate with their binoculars and instruments which in that environment and the ranges involved was difficult.

These 6 ships are called the Havant class or 'Brazilan H's' and differed in a number of ways to the Royal Navies H-class as they were being built in British yards for the Brazilian government to a slightly modified design and were then requisioned.
Broadly speaking their design for the Brazilian government was for a destroyer with greater emphasis on ASW than on the H-class fleet destroyers (jack of all trades) that the Royal Navies H-class could be seen as.
The most obvious differences being they only shipped 3 x 4.7" mountings, alot of their fixtures and fittings were stamped in Brazlian language and their crew messing arrangements internall different from standard RN practice.
The increased space on the quarterdeck (as Y mounting was omitted) made them very useful for ASW in the Battle of the Atlantic and thus many were then allocated as the lead ship in escort groups, Havelock's being Group B5.
The most famous one of these 6 havants was Hesperus which helped sink 6 u-boats I believe including 1 ace.
Five of the six wore interesting camouflage schemes which are well covered in Alan Raven's camouflage books (Havant was sunk off Dunkirk barely a few months old in overall grey).
For more information on the ships themselves the best books to get are Amazon to Ivanhoe by John English.
U-boat killer by Donald Macintyre
and finally the Warship Profile on HMS Hesperus.
Sadly all three are out of print.

Cheers
LB

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Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:14 am 
Thanks for answer Lawrence.Have You informations about camouflage painting?What colours was used on steel deck?H class had corticene or semtex?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:03 am 
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I know the 9 RN H-class had corticiene but they were commissioned in 1936.

According to Alan Raven's research he states that Norman Ough told him the Tribal class were the first class to have semtex fitted from 1938 onwards.
Some other destroyers from other classes may have then had semtex fitted in place of their corticiene if refitted after 1938, however their are ww2 colour photographs showing that corticiene was still i use on the decks of British destroyers, so its hit and miss.

However, a few weeks ago I stated on these boards that according to George Mack's book HMS Intrepid, when he joined Intrepid and operated with other I-class fleet destroyers on their first commission into the Med in 1937 some of them too had the new semtex fitted.

The 6 Havant's were constructed between 1938-1940.
Going by the timeline its more likely then had semtex fitted from commissioning.
Unfortunately my Great Uncle died some years ago and he never could remember Havelock's deck colour apart from grey!
I do know a few survivors from Havelock's 1940-42 days so I could test their memories and see what they remember.
I think by about 1943 the decks would have most likely been painted dark grey so it does depend on what time period you wish to represent one of the 6 Havant class destroyers.

In terms of the colours used most of these schemes are detailed in Alan Raven's camouflage books, though he did get Hesperus first scheme wrong :heh:
Which ship and scheme do you wish to depict please Palco?
Oh and P.S. you have Jim Baumann to thank for making me aware of your interest :thumbs_up_1:
Cheers
Laurence

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:02 pm 
Hallo Laurence.I know that in Alan Raven books is many mistakes[Hms Hesperus,Hms Scylla ect].Probably I will make one hull and superstructures and duplicate in silicone and cast two h-class from resin.One Hms Harvester in period 1940 next Hms Hesperus in period 1942 in different camouflage.

P.S.Thank You for scans who send My Jim.I have problem with registration in Modelwarship .I must write as quest.If You want contact with my -please us My e- mail adress paldent@op.pl.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:47 pm 
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email duly sent! :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:58 am 
So, the Scylla's camouflage is wrong is it? Speak to me.



palco wrote:
Hallo Laurence.I know that in Alan Raven books is many mistakes[Hms Hesperus,Hms Scylla ect].Probably I will make one hull and superstructures and duplicate in silicone and cast two h-class from resin.One Hms Harvester in period 1940 next Hms Hesperus in period 1942 in different camouflage.

P.S.Thank You for scans who send My Jim.I have problem with registration in Modelwarship .I must write as quest.If You want contact with my -please us My e- mail adress paldent@op.pl.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:31 am 
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Did the tube arrive?
You have been rather silent of late.
LB

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:54 am 
The material arrived on Friday.
I would have replied sooner but a medical emergency that took place over the last three days forestalled that.
I will return the stuff in about a week to ten days after going through it.


Laurence Batchelor wrote:
Did the tube arrive?
You have been rather silent of late.
LB


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