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 Post subject: Re: HMS VORTIGERN
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:32 pm 
Phil Gollin asked about VORTIGERN. There's a photo of her in autumn 1940 (ie before the refit to which naval-history.net refers), taken from the Imperial War Museum archives, on the front of the old Warship quarterly journal No 16. It shows her in overall medium grey (AP507B?) with black pennant numbers, black foremast above funnel level with the top section white. She has 'A' and 'B' guns, but the rest of the armament can't be seen, so no indication as to whether the after torpedo tubes have been replaced by an HA gun, or whether 'Y' mounting is still fitted. A crow's nest is present.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:49 am 
All:

Looking at the Australian War Memorial web site, I noticed that there are number of photos of HMAS Vampire from 1940, when she was still in her pre-war configuration (as depicted by the Tamiya kit), and that would seem to show she wore some kind of light gray/dark gray camo scheme.

See, for instances, photos number 133539 and 133526.

Would anyone know where once can find other pictures of her in this scheme from a better vantage-point? Is it possible that this was the same three-tone scheme shown in the pictures shown above? The AWM photos don't give us much to go on, but they are not inconsistent with the three-tone scheme shown in the photos above.

It would be nice to be able to build the kit straight from the box, wearing a wartime camouflage scheme; if we could find out more about this scheme, this would be possible.

Looking forward to your comments.

Yours truly,

Mike E.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:44 pm 
All:

There is a very nice kit build blog and diorama of HMAS Vampire in her camo scheme on a Japanese web site. Go to:

http://navalwar.web.fc2.com/gallery/tobruk.html

And to:

http://kanmolog.exblog.jp/i18/

The blog also has a link to a build of HMAS Waterhen on this site's gallery, which can be found at:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

Enjoy!

Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:13 pm 
All:

Here is another Tamiya HMAS Vampire kit build. Enjoy!

http://navalwar.web.fc2.com/gallery/vampire.html

V/R

Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:35 pm 
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Thank you Michael for posting this. :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:



Bob Pink.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:48 pm
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Location: North Wales
Finally got hold of one of these, first impression similar to the E class, fit and engineering look good but a little light on detail in some parts, especially the superstructure sides. No bad thing if like me you prefer a blank canvas in some places to add detail rather than have to remove overdone or heavy detail. One odd thing is both funnels have heavy bands around them, I've never seen this on any V/W, so that will have to come off. Guns are one piece which is a little disappointing, but overall impressions are good. Oh the joy of having a V/W kit in plastic to nitpick over!

Currently looking for what to do first, probably going to be an early or prewar ship pretty much as the kit configuration with all four guns and torpedo tubes, so many options!

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:26 pm 
Was the Vampire's deck in 1942 a light brown color aka corticene or was it dark gray?

On the Japanese page build site shows her to be in corticene, is this correct?


Bob Pink.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Bob
If it was corticene, it wouldn't have been over the whole deck as it wasn't used under the boats and torpedo tubes I think. Corticene is in any case a redder brown than this, if you have seen artists linoleum tiles used for printing, it is very similar to that colour. The colour shown is more likely to reflect a semtex covered deck, though I'm not sure if Vampire in '42 would have worn semtex, my feeling is not though I must admit it is based on nothing more than intuition. Painted steel would seem most likely if you are not sure, so a dark or medium grey would be appropriate in that case. Some ships did have strips of corticene laid on the steel, hopefully will do some photos of my Echo later and post them on the E class thread so you can see what I mean.

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Hi Mike:

Thanks for the quick response. Yes, I meant to say semtex instead of corticene. I typed too fast and didn't think of what I was writing.
I think that I will go for the gray deck for the time being. I still have to get the deck prepared for painting. The way I build, it will probably be the weekend or next week for painting. Again, thank you.



Bob Pink.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:37 pm 
At last, I have my first one. And the first question is....should the bridge wings be extended outwards on the prewar vessel? What was fitted there?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:52 pm 
All:

Below please find a short, out-of-the box review of the Tamiya, 1/700 scale kit of HMAS Vampire.

The kit parts are delicately molded in medium gray plastic, and surface detail is excellent. Engineering and fit (based on dry fitting of major sub-assemblies) appears to be superb.

With regard to kit accuracy, this is very difficult to judge, as I was unable to find published line drawings for HMAS Vampire, although I was able to find line drawings for several other V and W class ships in the sources cited below. Vampire was one of five V class leaders, and ships of this group differed in some important ways from other ships of this class—in particular, the fitting of an elongated searchlight/compass platform amidships, and an extended aft deckhouse to accommodate the flotilla captain and his staff. As a result, the location of the aft torpedo tubes and aft deckhouse differed slightly from that of other ships in the class. And apparently, the V class leaders were fitted with a taller foremast, with three yardarms—later reduced to two (thanks WR!). There may have been other differences that I have missed.

The bottom line is that out of the box, this kit accurately portrays only the five V class leaders—HMS Valentine, Valhalla, Valkyrie, Valorous, and HMAS Vampire—but none of the other V class ships in Australian service. Portraying other V and W class destroyers from other groups will require a bit of work.

Although lacking accurate line drawings of any V class leaders, I was able—thanks to the assistance of other board members—to get good quality broadside portrait photos of HMAS Vampire and HMS Valorous. I printed these out, and reduced them to 1/700 scale, and was able to match up the model to the photos to determine the accuracy of the kit, using direct visual comparisons and measurements using a set of dividers. I think that this has enabled me to arrive at a reasonable evaluation of the accuracy of the kit.

The scale length and beam of the hull are spot-on. Scuttles are delicately rendered, and scuttle arrangements match photos almost perfectly. The shape and arrangement of the forecastle and main deck appear to match up very well, in most respects, with published line drawings of other V and W class ships.

Overall, the location of the ship’s guns, deckhouse, bridge, stacks, and the searchlight/compass platform are reasonably accurate. There are some minor discrepancies or errors, however:

1) The gap between the bridge and forward stack is too small. Either the bridge extends about 1mm too far aft, or the forward stack should be another 1mm or so further aft—I can’t tell. But at any rate, there should be a slightly larger gap between the two.

2) The searchlight/compass platform is about 1mm too far forward.

3) The aft deckhouse is about 1.5mm too short, fore to aft, and therefore does not correctly portray the extended aft deckhouse of V class leader. Moreover, it is not clear whether the shape of the aft deckhouse when viewed from above is correct. Available plans for other V and W class destroyers show that the aft half of the aft deckhouse should angle gently toward the deck centerline. In the kit, the forward bulkheads of the kit’s aft deckhouse are slightly faceted while the aft bulkheads are squared. Maybe this is the way it should be, but at any rate, the aft deckhouse is still too short, fore to aft.

4) The stacks are the right height and have a correct profile, but the cross section of the forward funnel should be round, and not oval, as depicted in the kit.

5) Ammo lockers are too short, and are more representative than realistic.

6) Quarter deck arrangements—particularly the arrangement of the depth charges and paravanes—are suspect, and do not correspond to arrangements shown in line drawings or photos.

7) The guns and shields are one piece, and though they look OK, hopefully the forthcoming WEM PE set will provide PE shields for a more realistic look.

8 ) The aft blast deflector on the aft deckhouse is way too long (by about 2mm). This should be easily corrected, however, by sanding it back and thinning it down a bit.

9) The outline of the B gun platform deck is incorrect: when viewed from above, the port and starboard edges should be slightly rounded, and not parallel. This should be easily remedied with a bit of sanding.

10) Some of the deck details seem to be more representative than accurate, but they are delicately done and add a degree of density of detail that makes for a nice impression.

11) Bridge details appear to be accurate and match line drawings of other ships in the V and W class.

Overall, this is a gem of a kit, and should build up into a reasonably accurate representation of HMAS Vampire or any of the other V class leaders ‘as built’—though as noted above, there are some accuracy issues, most of which are fairly easily fixed.

Building Vampire as she appeared after her early war refit during WWII will require some work; the necessary modifications are described earlier in this thread.

Published references used include: Edgar March, British Destroyers: A History of Development, 1892-1953; Ross Gillett and Colin Graham, Warships of Australia, Alan Raven and John Roberts, Man O’War 2: V and W Class Destroyers, and; Anthony Preston, V & W Class Destroyers: 1917-1945.


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 Post subject: Errata/Mea Culpa
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:44 pm 
All:

Looking again at the HMAS Vampire kit and the broadside photos of HMAS Vampire and HMS Valorous that I have, I've concluded that I was wrong about the length of the aft deckhouse. As best I can tell, Tamiya got the length (forward to aft) of the aft deckhouse right. I cannot, however, say whether it is the right shape (when viewed from above).

I've also concluded that the searchlight/compass platform between the two sets of torpedo tubes may well be in the right place after all. Beyond that, as far as I can tell, everything else I said in the previous post is correct.

Happy modeling.

Mike E.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:46 am 
Mike, thanks for all this.

Am I right in saying that the aft deckhouse is right for all V/W, or just the V Leaders? My reading of Preston suggests that it should be the same for all, but he is not really that specific.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:34 am 
Graham:

Having just quickly consulted Preston, it seems that only the five aforementioned 'V' class leaders had the extended aft deckhouse in the 'as built' configuration, to accomodate the flotilla captain and his staff (I caveat this by saying in the 'as built' configuration, because it may be possible that some of the subsequently modified Wairs/short range escort versions had an extended aft deckhouse). According to Preston, "the main difference between the 'V' leaders of this group [i.e., the five aforementioned 'V' class leaders] and the later destroyers of this class was in the internal arrangements of accomodation to allow for the presence of Captain (D) and his staff on board. When the ships were disrated this accomodation was retained." (p. 98) You can see a clear difference, however, between the size of the aft deckhouse between the 'V' class leaders and 'regular' V-W class ships if you look carefully at portrait photos of ships of this class. Using a set of dividers helps. But the difference is clear.

Hope this helps.

Michael E.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:26 am 
OK, thanks for that, so I go looking at the photos in Raven, and selecting the clearest.

Vivien, good side view, large gap between tubes and deckhouse with mainmast centrally placed in gap.
Venomous, good detail view, mainmast abutting deckhouse, deckhouse has 4 scuttles with the door aft of the foremost, apparently less space overall between deckhouse and rear tubes
Veteran, ditto. This "4 window" deckhouse does appear on many V/Ws in the photos
Campbell, deckhouse extended forward, small gap between tubes and deckhouse with extra forward scuttle.

WAirs have a redesigned deckhouse, with the door aft.

Turning to the kit, the walls of the deckhouse are blank, but the size and position seem closest to the Venomous and Veteran photos. So the kit is not Vampire or any V leader but a more anonymous boat?

All of which underlines the "model from photos of the original" rule.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:33 am 
Michael,

Thanks for the very useful review. I have one query - you say ".... the cross section of the forward funnel should be round, and not oval, as depicted in the kit ....."; I believe the oval cross-section of the forefunnel in the kit to be correct - the photo at http://picasaweb.google.com/pingbosun/H ... 6938492818 shows what looks an oval funnel. Would welcome your views.

Tim


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:24 am 
I have one clear photo of the ship, a three quarter bow view, and the fore funnel looks round to me. I also looked at other views that I have of the V Leaders and all show quite clearly that the fore funnels sre round.
Hope that this is of some help.

Tim Stoneman wrote:
Michael,

Thanks for the very useful review. I have one query - you say ".... the cross section of the forward funnel should be round, and not oval, as depicted in the kit ....."; I believe the oval cross-section of the forefunnel in the kit to be correct - the photo at http://picasaweb.google.com/pingbosun/H ... 6938492818 shows what looks an oval funnel. Would welcome your views.

Tim


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:48 am 
Guest (Mike?) - thanks, but I still think they had oval forefunnels - my interpretation of photos of VALOROUS (http://picasaweb.google.com/pingbosun/H ... 6938492802) and VALENTINE (http://picasaweb.google.com/pingbosun/H ... 6470197042), and some of those on the Battleships & Cruisers website (http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/valkyrie.htm) is that they, as with the VAMPIRE photo, all show oval forefunnels - the for'd or after side of the funnels looks fairly flat, not rounded.

Tim


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 Post subject: 1919 colour scheme
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:57 am 
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I wonder if anyone can help with this,I want to build a V&W as one of the ships serving in Admiral Cowans squadron in the Baltic in 1919 however ive got no information as to the colour scheme that would have been worn at that time,anyone got any ideas,suggestions or definite info ?

cheers chris


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:08 am 
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Does anyone have any information or suggestions regarding the colour scheme of RN warships in the immediate post WW1 period,Id like to complete my V&W as one serving in Admiral Cowans squadron in the Baltic in 1919 however my knowledge of the appropriate colour scheme is sadly lacking,any help would be much appreciated.
cheers
chris


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