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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:40 pm 
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The Balch photos look like the Radar on the Mast has been "Censored" out of the Photo.

MB

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Here is another image of USS BALCH (DD-363) date 18 April 1942 during the Doolittle Raid. The best I can do.

The Air Search Radar has not been censored out, it has yet to be installed. The foremast has had some prep work done for the SC radar, but it had yet to be installed.

Image

BALCH didn't yet have an Air Search Radar (SC radar) installed. In a report documenting the progress of Radar Installations on Pacific Fleet Destroyers dated 10 March 1942 I have scanned, BALCH was reported as having the preparations to have radars installed, but the radars were NOT yet installed. In the above photo, dated 18 April 1942, she has had the FC radar installed.

Checking Weekly Overhaul Reports for Pearl Harbor Navy Yard, BALCH had a yard period 10-19 March 1942, when the FC radar was noted as being installed, but NO SC radar. She also had 20-mm guns and depth charge throwers installed. Number of 20-mm guns installed wasn't mentioned. In another report at PHNY, BALCH was reported as having a FC (typo for SC radar?) radar installed 4-8 July 1942.

Post the Battle of Midway seems like a reasonable time frame for BALCH to have had her SC (SC-1) radar installed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:05 am 
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Awesome! Thanks Rick - that's an excellent photo I had never seen before. Interesting to note how the prominent pilot house windows have been replaced with portholes. I would venture to guess that only two 20mm guns have been installed - both in the tubs abeam the number 2 stack. Otherwise the ship's armament looks nearly unchanged from "as-built" configuration; four 5"/38 Mark 12 guns in the Mark 22 single-purpose twin mounts and two 1.1" quad Mark 1 mounts superfiring.

The tall aft deckhouse still being intact is most interesting to me - I guess they were trying to get as many ships back out into the fleet as they could and cutting this down might have been extra effort. PORTER (DD-356) had this entire structure deleted during its earlier refits. Do you have any closeups of this area on the as-built ships, by any chance?

Cheers
Ian


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:04 am 
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Is this good enough or do you need a close crop of the aft deckhouse area? I also have an aerial view at an oblique view slightly from forward.

I will be out for much of the day. So, I can't post anything else until tonight.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:39 am 
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I really need a much closer crop; the shape of the aft deckhouse eludes me still. It looks like there's an overhang one level below the Mark 35 director, but I can't tell for sure. The Profile Morskie plans are typically vague in this area (of course), and the second pair of boats with their cranes make understanding the shape of this area from photos very difficult.

Also - you can and should use imgur.com for uploading the high-res stuff. It accommodates any resolution and is much more user-friendly than Photobucket (which is one step above malware with its constant ads and intrusive interface)...

Thanks!

PS: The photos of BALCH in 1942 show "something" on the 03 level of the aft deckhouse, any idea what it might have been? It seems too short to be a Mark 44 director for the aft 1.1" quad, and it definitely isn't a .50-cal. I assume the speed light was probably left in its original location on a small outrigger just above the 03 level, but it's far too small to be it. I'm drawing a blank :(

edit:

I think I may have found the answer. Check this out: http://imgur.com/a/LXN1b (DD-360 PHELPS at Pearl Harbor in late May of 1942). The after deckhouse top level has a 20mm mounted there. What I can't tell is whether or not it's surrounded by a canvas dodger or a splinter shield... the photo of BALCH seems to suggest that ship was fitted with a dodger, but obviously we can't really be sure. Any ideas? Same goes for the dodger or splinter shield on the second level around the 1.1" quad.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Here is a close crop of the same image of USS BALCH (DD-363).

Image

Below are additional images of sisters (DD-357 and DD360) of BALCH from pre-WWII photos.

Image

Image

I couldn't locate an overhead or surface view from the stern, except for this one of USS WINSLOW (DD-359).

Image

Here is an image of USS PHELPS (DD-360) taken at Pearl Harbor in May 1942 after she was modified to at least a similar configuration as BALCH. I suspect that only four 20-mm guns were added by this point.

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:32 am 
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Lovely shots.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Here is another image of USS BALCH (DD-363) date 18 April 1942 during the Doolittle Raid. The best I can do.

The Air Search Radar has not been censored out, it has yet to be installed. The foremast has had some prep work done for the SC radar, but it had yet to be installed.

Image

BALCH didn't yet have an Air Search Radar (SC radar) installed. In a report documenting the progress of Radar Installations on Pacific Fleet Destroyers dated 10 March 1942 I have scanned, BALCH was reported as having the preparations to have radars installed, but the radars were NOT yet installed. In the above photo, dated 18 April 1942, she has had the FC radar installed.

Checking Weekly Overhaul Reports for Pearl Harbor Navy Yard, BALCH had a yard period 10-19 March 1942, when the FC radar was noted as being installed, but NO SC radar. She also had 20-mm guns and depth charge throwers installed. Number of 20-mm guns installed wasn't mentioned. In another report at PHNY, BALCH was reported as having a FC (typo for SC radar?) radar installed 4-8 July 1942.

Post the Battle of Midway seems like a reasonable time frame for BALCH to have had her SC (SC-1) radar installed.


Grrrr... Is the forward 1.1" tub on USS Balch squared?


It looks like it is, but the angle of the shot provides a difficulty in determining what is up with the quad-1.1" tub, and whether what i am seeing is the canvas cover, or splinter-shielding.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Here is an image of USS PHELPS (DD-360) taken at Pearl Harbor in May 1942 after she was modified to at least a similar configuration as BALCH. I suspect that only four 20-mm guns were added by this point.

Image


Is that four or five 20mm?

I see two just in front of the aft deckhouse, or the 02 level, and I could swear there is another one on the roof of the 03 level.

Which, IF it is another 20mm up there, would make five, with the two next to the stack.

But if that isn't another 20mm, which I am beginning to suspect it isn't, because the others have the canvas covers on them, and what I am seeing on top looks like the barrel would be horizontal if it was.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:34 pm 
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I really think the object on the 03 level's roof on BALCH and PHELPS is a 20mm Oerlikon - there's really no other explanation for what it could be. It's definitely not a searchlight, the torpedo directors are on the bridge wings, and the emergency conn is in the small station just ahead of the 20mm tubs on the 01 level roof - I can't really think of anything else it could be.

Here's a zoomed close crop of the above image. I think it very clearly shows a 20mm Oerlikon, just based on the half-circle shoulder pads and the obvious forward shield. You can also see what looks like a sailor standing near the muzzle - perhaps he's cleaning the barrel? That would explain why this gun isn't covered under canvas and aimed skyward.

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Yep. There is a 20-mm gun up there on PHELPS. Missed that one earlier. Appears that she had five 20-mm guns at that time. I don't know how many 20-mm guns are on BALCH in the April 1942 photo.

20-mm guns could be stowed in the vertical or horizontal positions. But, once the Mk 14 gunsights were installed in late 1942, the 20-mm guns HAD to be stowed in the horizontal position ONLY or it would ruin the gunsight.

Attachment:
zDD360x20AftDeckhoseCrop-May42.jpg
zDD360x20AftDeckhoseCrop-May42.jpg [ 93.46 KiB | Viewed 2349 times ]


As for the view of BALCH's forward quad 1.1-in mount, it looks like canvas. It is tied down in a strange manner, but looks like canvas. The crew may have rigged a sun shade to do work on the mount, who knows.

Attachment:
zDD363x20FwdCrop-18Apr42.jpg
zDD363x20FwdCrop-18Apr42.jpg [ 59.26 KiB | Viewed 2349 times ]


I forgot I had this photo of USS SELFRIDGE from late in 1943. Even at this late date she still has the same basic configuration of BALCH and PHELPS with the aft deckhouse still in place, except for the temporary mods done for her "temporary" repair voyage back to the West Coast.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:59 am 
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Gents, I wonder if someone would be kind enough to help with the following question?

Can anyone post photos of USS Phelps DD-360 showing her overall configuration at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack?

Any help appreciated as my son would like to commission a painting of said ‘action’ for his uncle, as my sons grandfather, deceased, was aboard Phelps then, and for the duration of the war.

PS. We have seen the ones circa that date @ http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/360.htm

TIA.

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Kevin,

I posted a response on Steelnavy and didn't know you had asked the same question here. Please refer to my response there.

Rick


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:04 am 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Kevin, I posted a response on Steelnavy and didn't know you had asked the same question here. Please refer to my response there.
Rick


Thanks Rick, I have answered 'over there'. (But see 'edit' now below.)

I see some of the above pics of her close sisters might be of help also. :thumbs_up_1:

Again, thanks!

Edit. PS. If its all the same to you Rick, think I'd rather carry on any conversation here than over there, as much easier to post pics, etc. So, below is a pic purportedly c1939 of Phelps from 'navsource'. Think this is basically how she looked, sans pennants of course, at Pearl?


Attachments:
Phelps-c1939.jpg
Phelps-c1939.jpg [ 268.58 KiB | Viewed 2027 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Kevin, yes USS PHELPS (DD-360) retained a lot of her pre-WWII configuration. The most noticeable differences would be the paint and perhaps changes to the masts. Pre-work was done on a lot of USN ships for installation of mast top radar, even when the radar was a long way off to being installed. Not sure how many 50-cal MGs she would have had installed on 7 December 1941.

The King Board modifications were started for the Battleships, Cruisers, and Carriers in late 1940. The USN really didn't start determining and implementing the mods on destroyers until the middle of 1941. The only exception was the upgrade mod of installing six 3-in guns in place of the 4-in guns to boost their "AA-capability" (at least in theory) done to eventually 27 Flush-Deckers which started in early 1941. Some of PHELPS sisters had King Board mods done before 7 December 1941, involving cutting down the aft searchlight and aft fire control tower and additional AA guns installed. PHELPS didn't get those mods done until November 1942.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:04 am 
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Thanks again Rick.

I had another read of your post 'over there' on SN and realise that she probably looked more like your pic there - and posted above at the bottom of your 3133rd post (and again by MatthewB above) - taken in May 42. That is, no main mast and altered afterworks and foremast.

Now, just to figure where the .50's were all located?

BTW, have sent you a PM.

EDIT: Opps, yes meant .50's, not 50mm! Have corrected.

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


Last edited by KevinD on Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:55 am 
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DavidP wrote:
don't you mean 40mm's not 50mm's?

Probably meant 50 caliber's, not mm.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:44 am 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
DavidP wrote:
don't you mean 40mm's not 50mm's?

Probably meant 50 caliber's, not mm.


Yes sorry gents, meant .50's, not 50mm! Have corrected.

Sorry about that. :-(

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:26 pm 
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Questions about some details on the Somers class. I'm guessing the two things covered in canvas on Jouett's stern are smoke dischargers?

Also, anyone have any better (aka hi-rez) images - or plans - of this part of Somers? Working on the old YMW kit and trying to figure out what goes where, especially on the bridge. The instructions aren't always clear.

Thanks,

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:31 pm 
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Martin, are you looking for images prior to the "King Board" mods? For anytime in the 1930's or specifically for 1940-41?

The ship's boats and the cranes to handle them were removed earlier than the King Board Mods and "water-break" bulwarks were added along the main deck amidships. Are you modeling with or without the cranes?

After the King Board mods and the "unofficial" entry of the USN in WWII in the Atlantic, the class began going in multiple configuration directions, depending on the unit, timeframe, and area of operational deployment.

And yes, the canvas covered equipment on the fantail is 99.99% likely to be stacks of four Smoke Generator tanks.


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