The Ship Model Forum

Well, the caption of the colour(ized) photo is suspicious also because it says Wilson was in in the Pacific in early 1942. In fact, she spent the first 5 months of 1942 in the Atlantic, transiting the Panama canal on June 9th, 1942.

So the question of how exactly Wilson looked like in her Ms12Rmod camo remains open.

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Battle of Savo Island Collection (all 1/700)
Recently completed: USS Wilson DD-408
At works: USS Astoria CA-34 | USS Patterson DD-392 & USS Bagley DD-386
Prep stage: USS Vincennes CA-44 | HMAS Australia | Yubari | Kako

I’ve compared the color(ized) photo to the several I have of Sterett, in BOTH her 12 mod patterns, and I am convinced that the color(ized) photo is not Sterett. The first pattern she wore was often similar or identical port to starboard, and the second was straight-edged near vertical stripes. I’m trying to find the specific source where I obtained the picture electronically, and so far drawing a blank. I will continue to search, however.

Don,

I'm not saying that the image of the "colorized" destroyer is USS STERETT, I'm just trying to point out that the "artistic style" of the Ms 12R(mod) pattern is similar to that applied to several BENHAM class destroyers. It is unknown when this photo was taken. The destroyer does have radar (and likely 20-mm guns) installed when this photo was taken. When the BENHAM class destroyers were operating out of Iceland in early 1942, most units had yet to receive radars. When USS WASP and USS WASHINGTON operated with the RN Home Fleet in April-May 1942, most of the USN destroyers had at least a SC radar. The timeframe of Ms 12R(mod) use by the USN saw a lot of experimentation and revised patterns. USS TRIPP holds the record in my files of having the most camo schemes/patterns during WWII career. Unfortunately, there is a lack of photography for many USN ships during late 1941 into 1942 to document what their configurations were and what camo they wore.

The IWM has a few rare images of the destroyers of the DesDiv that USS LANG, STACK, STERETT, and WILSON were assigned to. Here are images of USS STACK and USS STERETT in the late January to 1 February 1942 timeframe at Iceland;

Note that USS STACK's camo matches her March 1942 yard period at NorNY when she received SC-1 radar and 20-mm guns. I had thought this yard period was when she was painted in this pattern, but it appears she had it before arriving at NorNY for her availability.

If this colorized image was taken in the Atlantic, then other BENHAM class units could come into play. I have no image of USS RHIND (DD-404) during this period. But, the IWM does have (I couldn't locate this image while searching their website), but it can be seen at Navsource (note that the date of the photo is wrong, more likely dates in about February-March 1942, based on 50-cal MG's) ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0540402.jpg ...

Awaiting the first of the Kraken upgrade sets for 1500 tonners (Benham Class) I do not have a clear understanding of the torpedo mounts carried during the early war 42-43 period. There are photos showing both 4 and 2 mounts in this period. The Midship kits list all 10 with 4x4 but it is clear to me that this may not be correct. I have a full slate of Midship kits and sub assemblies done but have yet to assemble any Benhams using Midship's instructions. Advice will be helpful before I undertake my long planned assembly of these kits.

Hi Steve, AFAIK all Benham class members except of Benham herself landed their aft pair of torpedo mounts as well as the searchlight tower already by 1941. Benham retained those until her loss during the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. They differed also in the aft 5in gun mounts depending on the timeframe. Benham and Ellet had open aft mounts in 1942 while the other units transitioned from the Atlantic retained their closed mounts until their refits in late 42 - early 43. Their radar fit was also developing and there were some small alterations on the top of the bridge and mast related to that. Checking photos is always advisable.

_________________
Battle of Savo Island Collection (all 1/700)
Recently completed: USS Wilson DD-408
At works: USS Astoria CA-34 | USS Patterson DD-392 & USS Bagley DD-386
Prep stage: USS Vincennes CA-44 | HMAS Australia | Yubari | Kako

A little background on the BENHAM class. There were twenty-two destroyers built with sixteen torpedo tubes (four quad mounts), the GRIDLEY, BAGLEY, and BENHAM classes. Of the three classes, the BENHAM's with new machinery were the heaviest with no margin for additions. The King Board ADIP mods did little to these units except for plans to cut down superstructures, of which some units had not been completely modified by the time the war arrived. As war approached in mid-1941, the units operating in the Atlantic needed to add ASW weapons, aka depth charges. Initially this involved depth charge drop tracks and a Y-Gun. Then the Y-Gun was replaced with SIX K-Guns. The GRIDLEY and BAGLEY classes could lose their midships #53 mount as weight compensation. However, the BENHAM's had to lose two of their quad torpedo tube mounts to increase ASW weapons. However, USS BENHAM and USS ELLET were still in the Pacific (assigned to DesDiv 12 with DUNLAP and FANNING) and kept all four of their Torpedo Tubes. USS BENHAM was lost with all four quad TT mounts. Meanwhile, USS ELLIOT lost her aft two quad TT mounts when she was upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts.

That should explain the images you see. Your modeling timeframe, will determine the configuration of your model.

Rick, thank you for expanding my knowledge. I tried to find a wartime photo of USS Ellet with her quad torpedo tube mounts (before her October 1942 refit) but I found none, all were pre-war. Have you got any?

_________________
Battle of Savo Island Collection (all 1/700)
Recently completed: USS Wilson DD-408
At works: USS Astoria CA-34 | USS Patterson DD-392 & USS Bagley DD-386
Prep stage: USS Vincennes CA-44 | HMAS Australia | Yubari | Kako

The Farragut, Mahan, Dunlap, Sims and Benson/Gleaves classes had 5 5" guns, and therefore sacrificed mount 53 to improve AA and ASW capabilities. The Bagley, Gridley and Benham classes only had 4 5" guns, and so all 4 5" guns were retained. Of those three classes, only the Benham's had base-ring type 5" guns aft, which meant they were the only ones that could have those after mounts enclosed. Since that was considered essential for North Atlantic operations (due to icing up of the gun breaches on open mounts), only Benham class units were transferred from the Pac Fleet to Lant Fleet during 1941. That is why the 8 Benham's in the Atlantic lost the after tubes in compensation for increased depth charges and enclosed after mounts. (Canvas topped for mount 53) The two Benham's remaining in the Pacific retained all 4 tube mounts and the open after guns. Benham's transferring back to the Pacific during 1942 retained their Atlantic fit until their first Pacific refit or repair, at which time the after gun shields were removed. Ellet updated to the new "ultimate" config in her first major wartime refit, at which time her after tubes were removed, matching her to the former Atlantic ships. Benham was lost before this could be done. Benham class ships remaining in the Atlantic retained the enclosed after mounts.

Valdi,

Yes I have several images of USS ELLET (DD-398) prior to being updated with 40-mm guns dating from April-August 1942. These two images are the best I have.






Sorry for mixing up which pre-WWII built destroyers had five 5-in/38 guns.

And here we have the elusive beast lurking in the background again!


Someone with better photo editing skills than mine may be able to pick some of the pattern out. I can make out some of the hull pattern even in this fuzzy pic.

Thanks Rick!

Matt

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In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

I noticed this destroyer in the background, but the image size is so small and distance is too far away to pull out any meaningful info to even ID her.

Thanks for the photos, Rick!

If the dating of the second photo is correct there is quite a good probability the DD in the background is Wilson, Matt may well be right. There shouldn´t be any other Benham-class DD around (except Ellet of course) on Aug 9 and this one likely has closed aft mounts. I tried my luck in Photoshop as well but as Rick wrote, this is not enough to get much more out of it.

_________________
Battle of Savo Island Collection (all 1/700)
Recently completed: USS Wilson DD-408
At works: USS Astoria CA-34 | USS Patterson DD-392 & USS Bagley DD-386
Prep stage: USS Vincennes CA-44 | HMAS Australia | Yubari | Kako

Does anyone know what Paint Scheme the USS Shaw, Cassin and Downes was in on 12/7/1941? One would assume MS1, but I know these units were involved in camo experiments and may have still been in one. Looking at post attack images doesn't help much with burn damage and oil staining. Some shots of Shaw do make me feel however she could have been in 5-S?

TIA
Matt

_________________
In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

I researched the Deck Log records (downtown NARA) and from the dated color photo of the DesDiv 6 at San Diego in October 1941, plus LIFE photos, they were in their Experimental Camo when they went into the PHNY for overhauls. They were suppose to paint into 5-S and I "believe" SHAW had at least started that process, since she didn't appear to still be in graded scheme. But, her graded paint scheme had "original" 5-O on the superstructure. Whether she had completely repainted, we may never know. Repainting while in drydock would have been routine since they were also "renewing" hull plating. But where they were in the process, I don't know. I don't know about the other two with any certainty. CASSIN should have been in Ms 1 prior to going into drydock.

Go to ... viewtopic.php?f=69&t=329394 ... to see the details I have and Jeff Sharp located at LIFE.

Who makes (or how do you build one?) a Mk.4 Fire Control Radar for the front of an enclosed Mk.33 Fire Control Director on WWII Gridley/Bagley/Benham class destroyers? The destroyers look naked without the radars. Is there something in 1/350 3d or photo etch? Model Monkey and Black Cat Models offer the FCD boxes, but no radars.

Black Cat has printed 1/350 scale Mk 4 antennas on Mk 37 directors as an item (AC350013a). The Mk 37 director and Mk 4 antenna pair come on two separate frets with two directors on one and two antennas on the other. Contact Black Cat and see if he would consider selling a "new" item with just the Mk 4 antennas. They already have two Mk 4 antennas with the support braces on one fret, and could just print a batch of them and maybe sell them as one fret or a couple of frets that way.

However, the support/mounting framing is different on the enclosed Mk 33 directors, but you could probably come up with some "off-the-shelf" PE from a scrap set that could be modified for the purpose along with useable parts of the Mk 4 antenna after trimming off what isn't needed from the Mk 4 antenna Black Cat makes for Mk 37 directors. If you want him to produce an antenna with the support bracing specific to the Mk 33 director, that would require design work and would mean he would need to determine if it is worth his effort in sales. I don't know if they are willing to, but Benjamin Druel is a nice guy and will respond to an E-Mail when he can (or ask him here as a reply to one of his "new item" postings). The worse he can say is sorry.

Also, Black Cat makes an antenna for the open top type Mk 33 director for the FARRAGUT class kit. But, that antenna was mounted "atop" the director, not in front like on the (enclosed type) Mk 33 director on the GRIDLEY/BAGLEY/BENHAM class and is completely different.

Thank you, Rick. I'll give these a try and get back to you if I have any luck.

Hey everyone, I have a request. On Pg1 I posted an image of the USS Sterett DD-407 under repair at Mare island in late 42/early 43. I can not locate the original high resolution version of that image anywhere in my digital archive

Does anyone have a copy they could share?

Image in question-


Thanks in advance,
Matt

_________________
In the yards right now:
USS Utah AG-16
On Hold
1/350 USS Portland CA-33 1942
1/350 Trumpeter Texas with a twist

Matt,

It isn't what I call "hi-res" but, I found that this photo was in the Gunfire Damage Report #33, which I located at NHHC ... https://www.navyhistory.org/wp-content/ ... p-1943.pdf ... They scanned the photo in the report, but the image isn't from an original print. The image is 2026x1292 pixels.

Chuck Haberlein at NHHC had a collection of Damage Reports and photos, I don't know if that collection had an original print of this photo.

What is in the tub in front of the bridge on 1943-45 Bagleys and Benhams? Not to be confused with 20mm on Gridleys.