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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:06 am 
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Jamie,

This is how I portrayed St. Croix in the 1/72 scale model I did of her several years back (now in the Naval Museum of Alberta). There are a couple of photos of her after her last refit that show the bridge plated in, and based on my research this is how she looked when she was sunk. I have to admit that the colours are a bit more of a stretch--I based the scheme on the Western Approaches camouflage as described by Alan Raven in Warship International in an issue from the early 1970's (I believe). I had wanted to model St. Croix as she would have been when she was approaching U-305 (which subsequently sank her with a acoustic homing torpedo).

Cheers,

Sean

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:16 pm 
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I was just wondering what that cylindrical thing is that I see on the port side of the aft deckhouse of many of the Wickes/Clemson DDs?

And why it isn't on the Flyhawk 1/700 USS Ward?

I noticed that on the USS Barker (DD-213), which is a Clemson-class, and not a Wickes-class, that this cylinder is not there as of 1941, and that in July of 1941 (I suspect on its way back to Mare Island) that the Aft gun on top of this deckhouse also has a shield. That shield isn't as deep as the one on the front gun, but otherwise looks the same.

Also in early 1942, it looks like the portholes on the forward deckhouse (which I understand is where the Galley is???) have been welded over (flush, it looks like, even).

Looking at the DDs that were posted to the Asiatic Fleet:

USS Alden, Barker, John D. Edwards, Whipple, Edsall, Bulmer, Stewart, Pope, Parrot, Peary, Pillsbury, John D. Ford, Paul Jones.

It looks like a lot of them had these portholes welded shut (at least on the few photos that show them between Dec, 1941 and Aug, 1942, when they returned to MINY to get upgrades: radar, 20mm guns - some look to have a few 20mm guns before they got back, as above, Barker looks to have two in July of 1942 - or I could be imagining it).

The Pope shows that same Aft Gun-shield as early as Jan, 1942, off Surabaya (The Pope, and the Peary, also look like they were wearing Peacetime Grey as late as Jan, 1942. The Pope looks to be very pale in the IJN Photos of her being sunk, and the Peary has a photo on Navsource labeled "New Years, 1942" that shows her in Peacetime Grey - or is that a mistake, because the Jan. 1, 1942 photo of Peary also shows her with a dented nose, that isn't visible in photos a month later with the USS Houston showing what looks to be Ms. 11).

Although the Pope and Peary show the open portholes in the forward deckhouse while before March, 1942.

But other ships look like they had their portholes welded shut while/after they were in Darwin in February..

Also, it looks like all of these ships kept their 4" guns through the entire war, and that all of them had that shield on the aft gun.

And it looks like every (surviving) Destroyer from the Asiatic Fleet was in MINY where they got a funnel removed, the bridge changed, depth charge racks, and 20mm guns added (and 2 Torpedo Mounts removed)


So.... Aside from these things:

Pre-July/Aug, 1942:
Gun-shield on Aft 4" Gun.
Cylinder missing off aft deckhouse.
After Portholes welded over.

Post-Sept, 1942
Portholes in Galley welded shut.
Extension to galley front to mount 1x20mm gun, P/S.
Aft Funnel and boiler removed.
After searchlight tower rebuilt, lowered, lengthened to mount 2x20mm Oerlikons)
After 2 Torpedo Mounts removed.
One ship's boat landed.
Bridge rebuilt.

Is there anything else I am missing that would have been done to these?

MB

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:45 pm 
1) The circular object atop the aft deckhouse on the port side was the small compass house...I don't know that these remained on them by Dec. 1941, however. I have a number of closeup photos of these ships in 1939-40, and I do not think they are still present at that time.

2) In general, though, ALL 13 Asiatic Fleet flushdeckers of DesRon 29 were Cramp ships, and basically identical, except for very minor differences. Such as gunshields, MG batteries.

3) Not ALL Asiatic Fleet ships in DesRon 29 had the exact same gunshields.

3) The pic of PEARY with damaged bow & a date of Jan 1942 is incorrect.

4) AFAIK there were no camo schemes applied except for the measures taken to conceal PEARY on her miserable trip south out of the Philippines. Some touch-up paintjobs did take place, however (on POPE, for example, at Surabaja, & J. D. FORD after she was shot up at Balikpapan) but certainly not per official Measures. (Some had dumped paint stores when stripping ship, also.) Many accounts by surviving men & officers of the Asiatic Fleet have come down to us and NONE so far as I can recall speak of official Measures being applied to these ships during the Java Campaign.

5) All of these ships were run very hard in the NEI, and their paint suffered accordingly, which is one reason they appeared light...IJN eyewitnesses at Balikpapan and at Badoeng Strait noted their extremely pale, whitish-gray shade. Certainly no camo noted--and the IJN had keen eyes for that...Those final pix of PEARY & HOUSTON at Darwin in Feb '42 show how abraded and indistinct their paintjobs were by that time.

6) For obvious reasons PEARY and PILLSBURY would've had the most visible differences from their sisters...

HTH


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:03 pm 
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About camo on Asiatic Fleet, including DesRon 29 destroyers ships, in late 1941. The Asiatic Fleet because they were not getting paint supplies from MINY, had paint made "locally" based on samples provided to them. The paint that Cavite Navy Yard came up with and was liked by the Asiatic Fleet, was APPLIED in the Ms 1 scheme but was much lighter than 5-D and it turns out was lighter than even 5-S but darker than 5-O. The Asiatic Fleet was happy with this "Cavite Blue" color but noted that the "local" paint faded quickly and was not durable. Eventually, by December 1941, the Asiatic Fleet painted over the Ms 1 lighter masts with the Cavite Blue paint, becoming Ms 1A or Ms 11 with Cavite Blue. Yet another variation in 1941 camo. :big_grin:

Attachment:
zdocCaviteBlue.jpg
zdocCaviteBlue.jpg [ 126.97 KiB | Viewed 1163 times ]


The only known color images of any of these destroyers, USS BARKER on her way back to the USA in July 1942, seems to bear this out. It is not known if USS BARKER had been repainted while in Australia or remained in Cavite Blue from the ship's own supply. Note the difference between BARKER's camo and the transport painted in 5-N or 5-S and the oiler in what appears to still be in faded 5-D.

By the way, by July 1942 and likely installed in Australia, BARKER had two 20-mm guns installed. There would be no way that any of the Asiatic Fleet units could have had 20-mm guns installed prior to the Fall of Java.

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Attachment:
USS_Whipple_(DD-217)_at_Sydney_1942[1].jpg
USS_Whipple_(DD-217)_at_Sydney_1942[1].jpg [ 67.12 KiB | Viewed 1148 times ]

And here is WHIPPLE at Sydney later in 1942, showing a very dark Measure which was certainly not applied during her Asiatic Station days or the Java Campaign. (Photo from AWM, ID no. 302772)

Had such darker colors been available to the Asiatic Fleet DesRon 29 fourpipers during the Java Campaign, I suspect they would have gladly utilized them, as it would have provided far better concealment in their nighttime engagements...much unlike the pale whitish-gray paintjobs they were compelled by circumstances to accept.


Last edited by Guro Optimo on Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:15 am 
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Rick,

1) Is that photo of the Barker, Kanawha, Buchanan, San Juan available in a higher resolution than you have on the Photobucket site?

2) now that that is out of the way.... Yes, I can see the distinctions of the Cavite Blue. Looking at the undersides of some features, you can see that the blue was originally much darker, but still lighter than 5S. It looks like a large degree of Prussian Blue paint, given the fading to almost white.

Did I understand correctly that they painted out the grey-white upper structures in Dec. '41?

3) What about the portholes. We those covered by Dec. '41.

I wonder this about both Wickes and Clemson-classes, with the portholes in the hull, and in the Clemson-class, the Portholes on the Galley amidships.

4) From Navsource, it looks like all of the Asiatic DesRon29 DDs went back to MINY in Late Mid-42 (August to September) to be re-built with a new Bridge (with a wedge-shaped Bridge that did not have the projection with the wind baffles and window covers), many turning into APDs, and replacement of many of the 5"/51 guns with the 3" DP gun. Is that correct?

MB

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:04 am 
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First, none of the Cramp boats of DesRon 29 carried 5"/51cal guns. ALL had the 4"/50cal.
No clear documentation about painting the flushdeckers after war began has come down AFAIK. (If such documentation exists, I would be delighted to know of it--it would be very useful to have. Maybe I just haven't seen it.)
There is anecdotal evidence of some painting--more in the line of touch-up work--once they got down to Surabaja.
1st platform level portholes were still open--apparently--well into the war, as shown in this image. But, wartime shots of AF fourpipers are as rare as hen's teeth. Pictures of Peary, Edsall, Pope, and an unidentified ship or two are not very clear, but seem to show the same thing: wardroom/CPO ["Guinea Pullman"] portholes remained open.
Attachment:
BARKER in Solomons.jpg
BARKER in Solomons.jpg [ 77.52 KiB | Viewed 1091 times ]
(Photo from NavSource, 80-G-K-526)
Here is a telling anecdote that is true: at the time Stewart capsized at Surabaja in the civilian floating drydock there, CDR Binford was asleep--after being up for 50 hrs straight, before, during, & after the Battle of Badoeng Strait--when the ship fell over. He heard "the damnedest roaring noise" and then everything slid sideways...He stuck his hand out the open porthole--his cabin was on the port side--and it touched water...


Last edited by Guro Optimo on Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Matthew,

The cropped lower-res version image is from a series of scans I had done from the original transparencies at NARA that a photographer aboard USS WASP (CV-7) took. I won't post or give out images I spent good money to get. Too many pirates take images I post, erase my captions and use them as their own. I don't mind people reusing my or anyone else scanned images of Public Domain material ( figure it costs me about $5/scanned image I do myself with travel and motel costs), but not giving credit to where they got it and in some cases making money from these images, rubs me the wrong way. NARA has stopped the Vendor program that was the only way to get scans of original 4x5 transparencies back in September. You can only scan second (third?) generation 35-mm slides made from the original transparencies. But the res and quality are much poorer. There is a higher res version of this image, 80-G-K-559, available from the NHHC website for downloading. Unfortunately it looks like a grayscale scan was made from the color print they had made years ago from the original transparencies.

... https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... K-559.html ....

The old NHHC website image.
... http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineL ... k00559.jpg ...

The Adm Hart memo says that the upper works were being repainted. Which ships completed that task before (or after) the attack may never be known. I feel pretty sure that USS HOUSTON did.

From MINY photos where you can see the mods done as circles or incomplete painting of the former porthole plates, I don't think ALL of the portholes were blanked off prior to the attack on the Asiatic Fleet destroyers. From the images I have, it looks like they had some or all of the deck below the main deck portholes blanked off during the mid-late 1942 refits. The lower deck portholes forward near the water-line likely were blanked off before the war.

Yes the Asiatic Fleet surviving destroyers returned to the USA in ones and twos. It looks like most returned first to Pearl Harbor and for several months operated as convoy escorts between the West Coast and Pearl Harbor, Then the DesRon 29 destroyers were overhauled/refitted as yard schedules allowed, to the Four 4-in Gun ASW mod applied to the units not upgraded to the Six 3-in Gun ASW mod (29 units upgraded in 1940-41). Some units actually had yard work done in two (or more) different availabilities. Most (all) of the DesRon 29 units were transferred to the Atlantic as convoys escorts. It doesn't appear that any of the surviving DesRon 29 units were converted to APD's or any other conversions where the 4-in guns were replaced with 3-in guns. Most were reconfigured as AG's for target towing or plane guards by 1945 with most of their armament stripped off.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:52 am 
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Anyone know of a decent photo of the area circled in the photo below? I'm trying to figure out what this depth charge thrower (I'm assuming that's what it is) really looks like. Photo is of Andy Elwood's DD-139. I've gone through numerous publications, but can't seem to find a good photo of this spot. Thanks!
Attachment:
dd139-007 (2)_LI.jpg
dd139-007 (2)_LI.jpg [ 885.95 KiB | Viewed 882 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:18 am 
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Martin,

It is a rather poor copy of a WWI era Y-Gun depth charge thrower. After the USN relocated the aft 4-in gun on the aft deckhouse, the Y-Gun was moved to the former 4-in gun foundation location. During peacetime, the Y-Gun was removed and stowed for wartime use.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Bravo, Rick! You are the man. That's perfect. Thanks so much.

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 Post subject: Anti Aircraft guns
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Does anybody know if the Ward had any anti-aircraft guns on 7 December. I have not found any reference or seen models with even 50 cals.

Scot


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Standard AA armament in 1941 for the Flush-Decker's that had not been rearmed with six 3-in guns or for units retaining 4-in guns equipped with the ASW mod of only two triple torpedo tubes and extra Y-guns or K-guns, was two or four 50-cal MGs. Two of the MGs were mounted just forward of the waist 4-in guns and may have been all that were installed before the war started "officially" for the USA on 7 December 1941. I'm not sure where the other two MGs were installed. Some units looking like one or two were mounted on the aft deckhouse forward of the aft 4-in gun. On ASW mod units, the former searchlight platform was replaced for two or three 50-cal MGs.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Thanks Rick. I assume they were water cooled. I have spares from Dragons early Benson kit so I'll see how a pair looks forward of the waist guns


Scot


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:16 pm 
The Asiatic Fleet DDs had up to four (4) .50cal MGs, plus the standard 3"/23cal 'pea-shooter' on the fantail, and the 4"/50cal main battery did have "shrapnel" projectiles for AA, although I do not think they were used very much during the war. (A few decklogs show them fired, however, as I recall.)
The .50cal MGs were of the water-cooled type.

Additionally some (& I suspect most) of the flushdeckers of DesRon 29 emplaced .30cal Lewis guns atop their deckhouse stations. We also know that John D. Ford had extra MG(s) installed by their own personnel during the Java Campaign.

Light MGs such as the Lewis guns were of relatively little material value against air targets, and fire discipline in such attacks was variable, but using them did help the crew morale.

HTH


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:11 am 
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Hey guys - does anyone know the exact mark/mod of the torpedo tubes aboard the CLEMSON class? This topic seems very hard to find info on for whatever reason... there's plenty about the Mark 14 and Mark 15 tubes aboard the later ships but I can't find much about the earlier models. I'm under the impression most of the later CLEMSONs used the Mark 11 torpedo as well... is this correct? I ask in reference to completing a drawing of the REUBEN JAMES (DD-245) as lost in October of 1941. The Floating Drydock plans show what look to be Mark 14 torpedo tubes, so I'm wondering if the torpedo tubes were upgraded during yard periods, or it's just a case of the draftsman being lazy and using a pre-drawn component vs. drawing the earlier tubes.

Any info or photos of the torpedo tubes would be much appreciated!

edit: For what it's worth, here's what I have so far (Mark 14 tubes included) - I'd love to hear any feedback:


Last edited by Colosseum on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:29 pm 
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A comment about your illustration of USS REUBEN JAMES as of October 1941. In page 36 of John Alden's Flush-Decks and Four-Pipes book, a photo of USS REUBEN JAMES in the Cape Cod Canal dated 21 August 1941, shows that her midships searchlight was removed and replaced with an additional 50-cal MG. This became a standard configuration for the Six 3-in gun armed ASW Escort conversions by mid-1941.

I don't know (and can't find right now) what the Mark and Mod number for the torpedo tube mounts that was used on the Flush-Deckers. I believe that the same "surplus" triple mounts were used on the DE's that had been removed from Flush-Deckers over the previous couple of decades. I don't think that you need the exact Mark and Mod to draw the tubes.

Edit; I did a laborious search through the BuOrd Pamphlet list at NARA and it looks like this

The earliest triple 21-in torpedo tubes (pre-Flush-Deckers) were Mk II
The Flush-Deckers triple 21-in torpedo tubes were either Mk III or Mk III Mod 2 or Mod 4 (without actually pulling the documents at NARA, which I'm not going to do, but I'm willing to provide where in the BuOrd (RG72) files you can, I don't have a clue about what the differences were) the last update was dated in 1941.
For completeness sake and because I spent an hour going through the BuOrd Pamphlet list; the Quad torpedo tubes were Mk XI, Mk XII, and Mk XIII, which gets us up to the Mk XIV and Mk XV for the quint torpedo tubes. The Missing torpedo Marks appear to be for the various submarines built.

Also, in the November 1944 and afterwards Armament Summaries the Mk and Mod of Torpedo Tubes are included in the data. I don't have copies of Armament Summaries for the Flush Deckers, so I couldn't check


Edit #2; Checking the Armament Summaries pages I do have, which included some of the DEs, I found that the triple torpedo tubes installed on DEs were Mk XX tubes. So either the older Mk III tubes were refurbished and redesigned Mk XX or all new tubes were produced for the DEs.

From the attached images, it looks like from when first built to WWII that the control and communications for the mounts changed.

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Fantastically informative, as always. Thanks so much Rick.

edit: here's the latest version of the REUBEN JAMES, with edits you've suggested:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:49 pm 
I have a question about .30 cal locations. I'm working on a model of USS Peary (DD-226) as she looked in the early autumn of 1941, just prior to her collision on 16 October with USS Pillsbury. E. Andrew Wilde, Jr's compilation "The USS Peary (DD-226) in World Was II" gives her armament, besides the usual 4" and torps, as four water-cooled .50 cal and four .30 cal machine guns. (There was no 3" AA gun.) I know from the various accounts in Wilde that the .50s were all on the galley (midships) deckhouse and I assume they were on the corners. I also know that there was at least one .30 on the fire control station (the platform above the nav bridge) and at least one and probably two on the after deckhouse. I have seen nothing that describes the .30 cal mounts but the written accounts always are phrased as if they were single mounts. Walkowiak's plans of USS Pope (DD-225) indicate locations for three .30 cal mounts: one aft and a bit to starboard on the after deckhouse and two on the after corners of the galley deckhouse. I'm going to assume that Peary used the same aft deckhouse position but that leaves a lot unanswered: were the mounts single or double? Where was the mount(s) on the fire control station? Do any of you know?


The starting point for my model is Tehnoart's 1/8" scale Ward kit and I'm nearing the end game. I'm going to paint it 5-L (using the "early 1941" color from my Snyder and Short paint chips). My authority for this (weak though it is) is the light color in the famously mislabelled photo of Peary with the mashed bow. I'm pretty sure that that photo was taken at the Cavite Navy Yard following the collision with USS Pillsbury on 16 October 1941. Peary was never again completely whole after that collision, which is why I've chosen to model her on a date just before.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Good luck with this quest. I can tell you a little, but doubt you will find the details you want to the exact level of precision that model builders now seem to desire. On the positive side, no one alive today can come forward and dispute many of your choices very convincingly.

PEARY is especially difficult in some regards because she was modified more than any of the other Asiatic Fleet fourpipers due to 1) her damages at Cavite on Dec. 10, and 2) her ad hoc camo-painting after that, for her long, ugly odyssey to the 'safety' of Port Darwin. (Where to find the right color of "ARMY Green" that she used, for example? etc.)
But, she is easy to model in the absence of a true mainmast with aerials & a crow's nest, etc.

I can tell you that if she had .30cals in the locations you noted, they were highly likely singles and AFAIK Lewis guns on simple, vertical pipe mounts. (Did they even have other types of .30cal MGs available to the navy at that time?) I don't think it likely they had the kind of more sophisticated tripod mount as shown in Dwight Messimer's excellent book, PAWNS OF WAR (1983). There's a great description of an Asiatic sailor rigging up ad hoc MG mounts in Dan Mullin's book, also. That these guns did not have good clear arcs of fire is verified in the diary of Bill Kale from STEWART who recorded that her MGers shot down some of their own aerials in the Gaspar Strait sortie of Feb. 1942.

The poor guy who was tossed overboard from PEARY as she sought to evade air attacks off Manado, Celebes, Billie Green, was a machinegunner, and atop the after deckhouse. I thought his was also .50cal mount, but I would need to dbl-chk my sources to confirm that. Just the fact that he managed to fall overboard suggests the rails there were perhaps not as high as those elsewhere, or had gaps in them.
There are very good, close-up images of such after deckhouse .50cal mounts in the G. Arnold book, BTW. Whether PEARY's were like that--on tubs that extended out beyond the aft deckhouse, I cannot say. (Seems unlikely in view of the rapidity with which PEARY had to be buttoned back up & sent south.)

Re MG atop the FC station, that area was notoriously overcrowded during Action Stations, and rigging up water-coolant lines, etc, would have been more hassle...so no .50cal there. It was probably just a simple single mount for another Lewis gun.

On galley deckhouse, we do have some good photo evidence; it looks like the .50cals were on the aft edge (?). The only clear wartime image of a fourpiper's light AA armament is in the pic of WHIPPLE leaving LANGLEY. (See below; I'm not positive about the original source, but it is nowadays recorded as NH 92474.) That appears to show the guns on her port side, fwd of torp mount no. 2, if I'm not mistaken.

HTH


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File comment: View of LANGLEY from WHIPPLE Feb 27
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