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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Yes if you chose one of the Round-Bridge units, you would need to modify them from what parts are available in the 1/700 Tamiya FLETCHER kit. Finding aftermarket parts to convert a Tamiya FLETCHER kit or you can kit bash a FLETCHER kit and a CUSHING kit together, which would get you a Round-Bridge unit with the mid-war configuration. Of course you would have left over parts.

As for the camo on USS SIGOURNEY (DD-643) in that October 1944 time frame, we don't know. Lee Johnson and others, including myself, have not found any photographic evidence that she actually painted into dazzle camo in the forward areas. The safe thing would be to assume that she stayed in Ms 21 (5-N) camo.

USS SIGOURNEY was assigned to DesRon 22 for the better part of the war, one of the lease photographed DesRon units.

During October 1944 "most" of DesRon 22 units were in the SF Bay area getting overhauls. Only USS CONY (DD-508), USS AULICK (DD-569), USS ROBINSON (DD-562), and USS SIGOURNEY (DD-643) were available for the early Philippines operations. As you can see from the list below, most of DesRon 22 units didn't get painted into dazzle until late 1944 during overhauls. CONY, AULICK, and ROBINSON were painted in dazzle during yard periods in 1944 or prior to delivery. USS SIGOURNEY is the unknown. My guess is she wasn't repainted into dazzle in the forward areas.

DesRon 22

DesDiv 43
DD-465 SAUFLEY ... Post Overhaul 15 October 1944 photos at HPNY shows her painted in dazzle camo (Overhaul 31 August - 18 October 1944)
DD-466 WALLER (DesRon Flag) ... Post Overhaul 14 October 1944 photos at SF shows her painted in dazzle camo (Overhaul 31 August - 18 October 1944)
DD-477 PRINGLE ... Post Overhaul 1 December 1943 photos at MINY shows her painted in Ms 21 (Overhaul 1 September - 19 October 1944)
DD-498 PHILIP ... 22 August 1944 as she headed to the West Coast for overhaul, shows her painted in Ms 21 (Overhaul 31 August - 18 October 1944; painted in dazzle during overhaul)
DD-499 RENSHAW ... no photos available in 1944 (Overhaul 31 August - 18 October 1944; Painted in dazzle during overhaul)

DesDiv 44
DD-507 CONWAY ... no photos available in 1944 (Overhaul 31 August - 18 October 1944)
DD-508 CONY ... Photos dated October 1944 show her in dazzle camo (Overhaul 6 December 1943 - 2 March 1944)
DD-510 EATON ... no photos available in 1944 (Overhaul 1 September - 22 October 1944)
DD-643 SIGOURNEY ... no photos available in 1944 (No major yards periods in 1944, would have needed to be painted in forward area)

Units assigned at various times;
DD-569 AULICK ... Photos dated October 1944 show her in dazzle camo (Overhaul 17 May - 22 June 1944)
DD-562 ROBINSON ... Photos dated October 1944 show her in dazzle camo (delivered in dazzle)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:52 pm 
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So the Sigourney was basically that guy that did alot of important stuff, but people didn't really pay much attention to. I am assuming she never went through an overhaul until 1945. Unless her running aground near Koiare, Bougainville on December 10th got her some sort of repairs in a drydock. Comparing information, she received the order for MS 32/13D a week or so following the grounding (December 30th 1943 is the date sent). About the only time I could see her being painted was around that time. But I don't see any records of her being repaired/ examined after the grounding and between her setting sail in september '43 to her overhaul in 1945, there is 1 photo but its not dated either. Any of her crew from WWII recount what color she was in at least?

As I do research on this ship, all I was going to use her for was an extra in my USS California dio, so the destroyer would not be the center piece.

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Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44 (Trumpeter)
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57 (Trumpeter)

in progress:
1/700 USS Montana BB-67
1/700 USS Houston CL-81

Waiting Drydock
1/700 USS Guam CB-2
1/700 Sigourney DD-643
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-49


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:11 pm 
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I guess you could put it that way.

Most of the destroyers painted in dazzle were done so with the assistance of a support unit. The patterns were such that laying out the outline was difficult without use of a drydock. Not necessary, but sure did help. The USN didn't start applying dazzle to destroyers in numbers until early 1944, and then initially only at stateside yards. While a ship was undergoing an overhaul or extensive repairs was a good time. SIGOURNEY was one of those destroyers who completed her 10-40mm upgrade during Post-Shakedown Availability in August 1943, well before dazzle was in effect. Her first "overhaul" should have been in late 1944. But, she was quite busy as you say. Some ships just slip through the cracks. With the FLETCHER class being 175 units, I know of quite a few individual units that I don't have photos of them "in the war zone".

Actually there could be photos of SIGOURNEY in dazzle (or Ms 21) somewhere during the Philippines campaign, or earlier, its just that the photos were taken at too distant to make out her hull number or it was blocked from view and not identified. After my last trip to NARA, I have two FLETCHER images in the 13D pattern that are UNKNOWN reported taken in 1945. I will attempt to ID them, but that is not a certainty. The 13D pattern was one of the most common dazzle patterns used on FLETCHERS in either Ms 31 or Ms 32 colors. In the case of DesRon 22 units, because of where they served in early 1944, SW Asia, there just wasn't as much photography taken by USN for some reason or another. But, sometimes photos turn up taken by the US Army or Australian forces.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Location: Lompoc, California
Hopefully something comes up though, but yeah, having 175 ships in the class could cause some to slip through and not be painted in the dazzle camo. I noticed it was a very popular scheme to use; one site shows a good number to ships painted in that design. Yet Sigourney is the only one not confirmed to have it done. I wouldn't say it would be wrong to paint her in the 13D, but since no true evidence has arisen, having her in the MS 21 is probably the safest bet.

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Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44 (Trumpeter)
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57 (Trumpeter)

in progress:
1/700 USS Montana BB-67
1/700 USS Houston CL-81

Waiting Drydock
1/700 USS Guam CB-2
1/700 Sigourney DD-643
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-49


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
I guess you could put it that way.

Most of the destroyers painted in dazzle were done so with the assistance of a support unit. The patterns were such that laying out the outline was difficult without use of a drydock. Not necessary, but sure did help. The USN didn't start applying dazzle to destroyers in numbers until early 1944, and then initially only at stateside yards.


Hello Rick

So many years on......Thanks for all you do to inspire research on Fletcher DD's : )

http://www.usndazzle.com/Destroyers%20P ... s/520E.jpg

There's a few other photos online which need photoshop clean up.
https://m.soundcloud.com/nys_military_m ... obert-alan

This Blue Jackets served aboard USS Isherwood DD 520 in 1943
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303 ... -Aug43.jpg

Your photo bucket album of USS Isherwood & USS Bell - taken from USS Tuscaloosa in 1943 is Winston Churchill
In RMS Queen Mary running at high speed to meet FDR,.....with U Boats alerted.
USS Augusta - Crusier...could not keep up...Dropped out.
Photo bucket changed their link rules.
My Photos of DD 520 are still online. ..will try to fix that for Shipmodel forum.
April 16/ 1945 radar picket 14,....USS Pringle sunk....USS Laffey on nearby picket...crashed by 7 Kamikaze, towed away a charred wreck.
USS Isherwood arrived to search for Pringle survivors, ...replace USS Laffey on RP.
LSM R and other boats in radar picket with Pringle were firing into the sea to kill sharks near survivors.

USS Isherwood was sea grey in 1943 Atlantic, ...Pacific Blue ( apology for Bu ships number)...during Aleutians 43/44
Dazzle 31 16d from Vallejo CA 1944 August to post Kamikaze repairs July 45.

Again. ...Thanks Rick for All the years of publish on Fletcher class.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Brad,

Thank you for your post.

I do have to correct you on ISHERWOOD's painting/camo in 1943. From when she was completed and during her tour with the Home Fleet, she was painted in Ms 21 (5-N), until she was repainted in dazzle.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
I do have to correct you on ISHERWOOD's painting/camo in 1943. From when she was completed and during her tour with the Home Fleet, she was painted in Ms 21 (5-N), until she was repainted in dazzle.


A LT/JG on Isherwood kept a private diary.
During last week of January 44 Isherwood and William D Porter put in at Pearl Harbor,...Isherwood had taken a 46 degree roll during an operation in the Aleutians, had damaged it's Sonar dome.
The diary has William D Porter getting painted in Black/White dazzle.....Isherwood in drydock painted Blue.
I had thought the Ship was painted grey in 43....with it getting painted blue as per the ref from the diary.
Dazzle was applied in August 44
The 1943 photos of the ship b/w give the impression of Grey paint.
Possibly the Ms 21 5n dark blue looks Grey in b/w photos : )


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:39 pm 
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Brad,

It can be difficult to determine the color of paints in B&W images, unless it is known what camo schemes were in use at the time of the photo. Ms 21 camo (5-N paint) is one that really varies in grayscale photos. There are very dark images and very light images that much can be largely explained by camera settings. Photographers would naturally set the camera so that as many details as possible would show up in the photo. Another factor was that 5-N was one of the paints that faded a lot in the Pacific sun, plus the salt spray created a layer of salt film that certainly lighted the overall color.

But, we know from directions in BuShips files that virtually every FLETCHER, ALL of which were designated for operations in the Pacific, from early 1943 were ordered to be painted in Ms 21 camo even if they would be operating in the Atlantic Fleet for a period of time. From August 1942 until early 1943 if a FLETCHER was going to operate in the Atlantic, like the units that went to Operation Torch in November 1942, were painted in Ms 22 camo. At the same time the Pacific Fleet had already required that their ships be painted in Ms 21 camo, but units transferred from the Atlantic continued to arrive in their Atlantic Fleet camo and needed to be repainted. Efforts to get all or almost all units in the Pacific Fleet painted in Ms 21 camo was ordered in late October 1942, as soon as operations allowed.

There were some oddball camo schemes that continued to see use after Ms 21 and Ms 22 camo schemes were approved as the primary schemes to be used. Ms 18 camo, the demarcation line between 5-H and 5-N followed the main deck sheer line rather than be parallel to the waterline, was fairly common in the Atlantic fleet. Mountbatten Pink (a med gray) was used in the South Atlantic into 1944. Etc.

The example of USS WILLIAM D PORTER and USS ISHERWOOD being painted with different camo schemes at the same time in January 1944 is an example of a period of transition in authorized camo schemes. The new dazzle schemes were authorized in late 1943, but each ship was to receive direction via correspondence as to which specific pattern design. WILLIAM D. PORTER likely received such a letter and her CO "agreed" to having his ship so painted. ISHERWOOD either had not received direction as to which dazzle scheme to apply or her CO decided not to apply it in favor of a fresh coat of 5-N.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Which 1/350 kit would be best for building the USS Wickes DD-578?

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1/700 USS Macon CA-132
1/350 USS Wasp CV-18
1/350 USS Alabama BB-60


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Other than a resin kit that may be available, your options are the Tamiya FLETCHER kit (Rd-Bridge) configured for the early fit in mid-1942 and the Trumpeter THE SULLIVANS kit (Sq-Bridge) with options for a five twin 40-mm mount version or the Anti-Kamikaze mod version. The Tamiya kit is a full-hull and the Trumpeter kit can be built as either a full-hull or a waterline model. Both kits have errors, that may or may not apply depending on when you are modeling your model to. After-market parts almost a necessity to be accurate.

Without knowing for what time period you which to model USS WICKES I can't be very specific. WICKES was delivered in the three twin 40-mm mounts configuration. But was quickly modified to the five twin 40-mm mounts configuration and was in that configuration for most of her wartime service and was upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze mod version in 1945.

Since USS WICKES was a Rd-Bridge unit you likely would need a Tamiya kit anyway. But, I have found kit-bashing the Tamiya and Trumpeter kits together and using third-party parts is the best route for what I wanted to do. There are also quite a few 3-D printed parts for the FLETCHER kits. Model Monkey and Starship Bob's have parts that you may well need for your build. You may be able to buy enough upgrade parts for a Tamiya kit so that you don't need to do a kit-bash with a Trumpeter kit.

I have a model I have been working on where I used the Tamiya kit Rd-Bridge and midships deckhouse on a Trumpeter waterline hull and forward deckhouse and aft deckhouse. I have also bought 3-D printed parts to get the configuration I needed. Everything needed some trimming to fit or to match the ship my model is based on (USS SIGSBEE at the end of WWII).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:06 pm 
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I was planning a 1944-45 model of USS Wickes. With that in mind would it be best to just get the Tamiya and Trumpeter kits?

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1/700 USS Macon CA-132
1/350 USS Wasp CV-18
1/350 USS Alabama BB-60


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:32 pm 
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That or get the required parts for a conversion from the 3-D printer guys. There are problems with the old Tamiya kit. Things like the 5-in gun mounts need to be replaced with truer scale versions. There are resin and 3-D printed replacements (from Model Monkey) for the 5-in/38cal mounts. On my USS SIGSBEE model, I went one step further and have been using spare parts from one of my DML 1/350 scale BENSON-GL:EAVES kits to replace other items like the torpedo tubes.

If you want to model full-hull, the Tamiya kit is a possibility as the base kit. But since the basic Tamiya FLETCHER kit doesn't have the forward or waist twin 40-mm "tubs", you need to use the Trumpeter kit for those part or if you use 3-D printed twin 40-mm "tubs" for the waist and forward of the bridge locations, then the need for kit-bashing with a Trumpeter kit is less needed. Or you can use most of a Trumpeter kit, save for the Rd-Bridge from a Tamiya kit. Unless one of the 3-D printers comes up with a 3-D printed Rd-Bridge. The 3-D printed market keeps adding stuff and changes more than I can keep up with. In either case, other bulwarks for like the 20-mm guns may need to be modified to match the configuration of USS WICKES.

There were some deckhouse differences from the early Rd-Bridge FLETCHERS and units built mid-war and afterwards. But, they are minor and can be modified if desired to go that route.

There were several different types of twin 40-mm "tubs" built for various FLETCHERS. The type of tub installed on USS WICKES are closely matched to what comes with the Trumpeter kit. See attached images. When first completed, WICKES had the 'round-shape' waist tubs, but with the outboard bulwark removed and railing in its place. That method wasn't liked by BuShips and by August 1944, she had been modified to the standard solid bulwark shape tubs. But, the standard aft twin 40-mm tub ... what I call the "Tear-Drop" shape ... used on most FLETCHER's as completed, isn't available for either the Tamiya kit or Trumpeter kit. Bob's Starship Shop makes a replacement for that part. ... https://www.shapeways.com/shops/bobssta ... Parts+&s=0 ... Most of his parts are for the 1/144 scale FLETCHER kit from Revell, but he may revise the CAD for 1/350 scale versions if asked. Model Monkey also has some of these items, again in 1/144 scale or 1/350 scale ... https://modelmonkey.wixsite.com/modelmonkey ... If he has it in 1/144 scale but not 1/350 scale, he may well make it available in 1/350 scale as well.

As you see you have several routes to get there, depending on how much you are willing to spend and how much effort to kit-bash or use 3-D printed parts.


Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Hi Guys,

Can someone help me as I'm doing some research on USS Abbot for a model I'm building.

When did Uss Abbot get modified to carry extra 40mm guns were the first torpedo tubes were and what was her paint scheme at the time .

Regards,

Brian

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Brian,

If I understand your question right, you are asking about when USS ABBOT had the waist twin 40-mm mounts and the forward torpedo tubes replaced with two quad 40-mm mounts. Known as the Anti-Kamikaze Mod. If that is your question, the answer is that she never had quad 40-mm mounts.

USS ABBOT was completed in the three twin 40-mm mounts and ten 20-mm configuration. After a collision in October 1943 while training with carriers off Pearl Harbor, she was repaired and had the two twin 40-mm mounts installed before her bridge replacing the three 20-mm guns that had been there. From that point on, she was in this five twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm configuration throughout WWII and into mothballs. When recommissioned for the Korean War, after a short shakedown period, she immediately went into the yard and was one of the very first units to be upgraded to the "4-Gun" mod, aka four 5-in guns and three twin 3-in mounts in 1951.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Brian,

If I understand your question right, you are asking about when USS ABBOT had the waist twin 40-mm mounts and the forward torpedo tubes replaced with two quad 40-mm mounts. Known as the Anti-Kamikaze Mod. If that is your question, the answer is that she never had quad 40-mm mounts.

USS ABBOT was completed in the three twin 40-mm mounts and ten 20-mm configuration. After a collision in October 1943 while training with carriers off Pearl Harbor, she was repaired and had the two twin 40-mm mounts installed before her bridge replacing the three 20-mm guns that had been there. From that point on, she was in this five twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm configuration throughout WWII and into mothballs. When recommissioned for the Korean War, after a short shakedown period, she immediately went into the yard and was one of the very first units to be upgraded to the "4-Gun" mod, aka four 5-in guns and three twin 3-in mounts in 1951.


Sorry for the confusing question.

Yes I was asking about if Abbot did carry quad 40mm guns on the waist positions. My take on your answer is there were 2 twin 40 just in front of the bridge, 2 on the waist, 1 between turrets 3 and 4.

I was thinking of paint her as in 1945 configuration and according to http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm Abbot carried measure 21 thourghout the war.

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Brian

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:18 am 
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I don't know exactly when USS ABBOT was repainted in Ms 22 (mostly likely in about March 1945), but was by mid-1945 (I have images of her in June and August 1945 of her in Ms 22).

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
I don't know exactly when USS ABBOT was repainted in Ms 22 (mostly likely in about March 1945), but was by mid-1945 (I have images of her in June and August 1945 of her in Ms 22).

Image


Great photo.

thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Hello fellas. Been away a while . . . work, life, gets in the way of important things like modelling. :)

Settling into retirement and back to work on my 1:144 Revell Fletcher being built as the square bridge USS Luce in Dazzle camo.

I am getting conflicting info as to whether she was in Measure 31 (5-H, 5-O, Dull Black) or 32 (5-L, 5-O, Dull Black) after her refit in San Francisco in summer 1944. usndazzle.co says she was in Measure 31-18D . . . so the light color is either Haze Grey or Light Grey . . :/

http://www.usndazzle.com/ships.php?category=4&class=8

Whereas shipcamouflage.com says she was in measure 32-18D . . .

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/fletcher_class.htm

I found at least two other online references that supported the measure 32-18D but for the life of me I can't find them now.

These are the two best photos I have found of her in Dazzle, the second one was supplied to me here on this forum by Rick Davis (Thanks Rick!) several years ago. Sure looks like Light Grey to me . . but what do I know :/

Image

Image

FWIW I sent several emails to Lee at usndazzle.com but they were returned with the message that "recipients email box is full" or something like that . . .

Thanks in advance!!! :)

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:00 am 
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Lee likely has the best info on USS LUCE (DD-522). He has been going through not only photos, but has been studiously going through the BuShips records for each destroyer and in camouflage records for instructions.

Lee's E-Mail at his website gets full pretty quickly, give him some time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:37 am 
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Thanks Rick. What have you got for Luce pics? Anything that isn't already out there? The one above of her in the yard wasn't out there 'till you posted it to me a few years ago, as far as I know. Thanks

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On the Ways;

USS Luce DD-522 in MS 32/18D, Revell 1/144
USS Luce DD-522 in MS 21 (1945), Revell 1/144


In the Future;

USS Luce DD-522, 1/72 Scratch Build
LSM(R)-190 Modded from Revell 1/144 LSM (landing Ship Medium) Kit


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