The Ship Model Forum

I don't fully understand what you want as far as "require layouts of decks"? Just the exterior "wet" main and superstructure decks or all the interior decks as well??

As for USS CHEVALIER's armament and camo during her relatively short career, the image I posted shows her final configuration. Some study is required to locate everything in that image and a few configuration details remain uncertain. When CHEVALIER supported Operation Torch as a convoy escort, she was painted in Ms 22 and it is unknown if she was repainted prior to going to the Pacific. But, given that several other FLETCHERs that also served as convoy escorts for Operation Torch also painted in Ms 22, and arrived in the Pacific with that measure, that is a good guess. However, she (and most other FLETCHERs) was repainted into Ms 21 fairly early after arrival in the South Pacific, if not before she left for the Pacific, based on photos of her.

When USS CHEVALIER (DD-451) left BosNY for the Pacific, she had five 5-in/38 mounts, one quad 1.1-in mount, two quint torpedo tube mounts, and seven 20-mm guns; two per side on main deck at the waist, two forward of the bridge - port and starboard - at the 01 deck level, and one on an elevated platform on the centerline forward of the bridge. Also she had six K-guns, and two depth charge drop tracks. She retained this armament to her loss. She never had twin 40-mm mounts installed. While in the South Pacific War Zone, she had four additional 20-mm guns added (exact dates when each was installed are unknown, but likely were in place by January 1943); one was added atop the pilothouse on the centerline and three were added on the fantail, roughly in the same layout as was installed on most FLETCHERs after the fantail twin 40-mm mount was relocated. The only difference is that she and her sisters, didn't have a full bulwark installed surrounding these three 20-mm guns. That was her early 1943 to final configuration.

Many of the specific details you are asking for can be found in this CASF thread. It will take time to go through, but spares repeating info.

Thanks again.

I feel really awkward asking time and time again, but my friends aren't great at English end need me to relay their questions. I hope you don't mind.

For now I got none more, you have told me what I needed, the rest I found myself. I am most grateful.

Do you have advice to convert a Fletcher in 1/700 to a DDE in an early 1960s fit? Pre-FRAM?

I ordered Cushing by Tamiya. I have Mk 108 launchers by Niko and Mk 56 gun directors by Model Monkey (for the 3")... I am not sure yet in regard of the Hedgehog and the 3" twins. I have hopefully somewhere a PE SPS-6 radar.

As references, I have the destroyer books by Terzibaschitsch and Friedman, I know for sure Navsource as a source for photos. I have not yet good drawings, especially views from above.

/edit: I have to apologize for not checking all the pages in this thread - there are a lot of them...

_________________

Thank you very much! There appear to be unfortunately several differences between that project study and the real ships.

_________________

The link above is to a "Proposed" initial design for the DDE conversions. A lot changed. A whole lot changed.

Which drawings are best for you, depends on which unit you wish to model and timeframe. The first FY units had pole foremasts and the finally group had tripod foremasts. Some things to consider is that the bridge pilothouse was elevated 1/2 of a deck to clear view over the Mk 108.

Alan Raven's 1986 "FLETCHER CLASS DESTROYERS" book (ISBN 0-87021-147-1) has some excellent drawings of the FLETCHER class DDE's. Specifically of USS RENSHAW (DDE-499) in 1950 and USS JENKINS (DD-447) in 1967. Other variations can be derived with these two and photos.

Thank you very much for the information and the book recommendation! Good tip that the bridge was elevated!

I have not yet decided on a specific ship, the time frame will be 1960-62. It will be one of these four: USS Conway (DDE-507), USS Cony (DDE-508), USS Eaton (DDE-510) and USS Murray (DDE-576).

I know that two of these had tripod masts, the other two not.

_________________

The four candidates for your modeling effort for 1960-62 timeframe, are non-FRAM configuration. That narrows down the configuration.

Below are images of all four "roughly" in the 1960-62 timeframe, +/- two years. They really didn't change much in appearance after getting the Mk 32 triple ASW Torpedo Tubes. Three of these units show the Mk 32 ASW TT mounts, with the image of USS CONY (DDE-508) not showing them installed, meaning that the photo was probably taken in late 1950's. I have "Antenna Survey" views of several of these units taken in 1959, which would still be valid for your period of interest, if interested. The USS MURRAY (DDE-576) view is nice in being an aerial oblique view showing much of the deck layout. The question mark for FLETCHER DDE's in this period, is how many Mk 25 TT are still installed? On some units two of the four were removed.

The DDE's were reclassified back to just "DD's" in 1962.

Also, I have snapshots of the 1965 BGP for USS CONWAY (DD-507). The only one of these four that I do have a DDE configuration BGP.

These are really very helpful photos and information! Thank you very much!

The antenna survey views would be likely also very helpful.

For a specific ship and time frame, I will have to be careful regarding the torpedo tubes.

_________________

I dug a little deeper into my files and found these notes (by the way, I referred to the fixed torpedo tubes as Mk 25, they are actually Mk 23 torpedo tubes, sorry);

DDE(DD)-507 CONWAY, had the Mk 2 TLS equipment removed and Mk 32 ASW triple Torpedo Tubes installed in her scheduled early 1962 Overhaul at NorNSY (ShipAlt 445-1180).

DDE(DD)-508 CONY, also had her Mk 2 TLS equipment removed and Mk 32 ASW triple Torpedo Tubes installed in her scheduled early 1962 Overhaul at NorNSY (ShipAlt 445-1180).

DDE(DD)-510 EATON, also had her Mk 2 TLS equipment removed and Mk 32 ASW triple Torpedo Tubes installed in her scheduled early 1962 Overhaul at NorNSY (ShipAlt 445-1180).

DDE(DD)-576 MURRAY, also had her Mk 2 TLS equipment removed and Mk 32 ASW triple Torpedo Tubes installed in her scheduled early 1962 Overhaul at NorNSY (ShipAlt 445-1180).

This makes sense that all would have had their overhauls at the same time, since they were in the same Atlantic Fleet DesRon 28.

I had thought that they had the Mk 32 ASW TT mounts installed earlier, based on other FLETCHER class DDE's getting their Mk 32 ASW TT before this in 1960-61. Their Overhauls were SCHEDULED in early 1962 based on BuShips records at NARA. But, AVAILABLE NARA records for BuShips end in December 1961. So, any of the photos I posted showing Mk 32 ASW triple TT mounts, are mid-1962 or more recent. Many of the images I have for destroyers in the 1960's didn't have dates associated with them. I put dates that reflected ABOUT when those ships had that configuration and sometimes minor paint changes.

Also, I only have a few Ship Characteristics Cards for destroyers during WWII and after, but I do have sets for USS CONWAY and USS EATON in 1968. Both had all four Mk 23 fixed torpedo tubes in the aft deckhouse. By checking the Armament Summaries for 1960 (dated December 1960, but the data dates "as of" 1 July 1960 ... if not earlier), shows that only USS FLETCHER ad USS RADFORD had their Mk 23 TT batteries reduced to two. The problem with the Armament Summaries is that their data lags and got worse in the 1960's. As an example, this info doesn't show the changes being made (already made) for the three FRAM II converted units.

I have "Antenna Survey" photos for USS CONWAY, CONY and EATON, not MURRAY. Once you have decided on which subject you plan on modeling, I can post what I have.

Thank you very much for checking the status regarding the torpedo tubes!

I will built USS Cony, c. 1960-1962 (before the torpedo tubes were modified), but with the closed bridge.

If there are not enough photos to be found, USS Conway would be the second choice. But the photo of Cony, which you posted, is already very detailed. Therefore I assume that there will be enough information to built Cony - especially, if you have additional information about her antenna.

_________________

Hello once again to mr. Davis and all Fletcher-class fans.

So my friend and I have been digging more into the topic of USS Chevalier DD-451, the damage sustained by the ship and its eventual sinking. While studying different blueprints for the 20 mm AA position in front of the bridge we never once found any sign of a ladder leading there. Which, obviously, begs the question, how did the gun crew get there? Any ideas or data, perhaps?

And then there's the damage of the front superstructure. A diagram on navsource shows the first floor dented inwards and the second floor inclined forward with the deck between the bridge and no. 2 5" turret blown upwards towards the bridge. Could a long lance torpedo explosion inflict such damage, even if the shells in ammo handling room under the no. 2 5" turrets exploded as well?

Last not least, it appears the torpedo explosion left the forward fuel oil tank burst open. To properly replicate this on a model it would be necessary to know if the oil tank was mounted on the keel and bottom longitudinal beams essentially forming a double bottom or did the tank's bottom coincide with the ship's bottom. The inside view pictures of USS La Valette suggest the latter, but better ask twice than get it wrong, right?

Thanks in advance, as always.

Guest,

There were at least three different designs of the elevated center-line platform for a 20-mm gun on FLETCHER's (another similar platform used on BENSON-GLEAVES class units, plus designs unique to other destroyer classes). BosNY and NYNY had two slightly different designs for Round-Bridge FLETCHER's. A third design was made for Square-Bridge FLETCHER's. The BosNY design had a crew access and ammo passage through the bottom of the platform with a ladder under the platform. Meanwhile, NYNY had an access on the portside of the platform with a ladder run up the face of the bridge and smaller ammo passing shuttles through the bottom. The BosNY design had an issue with the access being just outside of the working circle for the 20-mm gun. I don't know if there was a hatch cover over the access or how they managed not having a crewman fall through the hole in the deck. So I have wondered if crews altered the access in the forward areas? In any case, it appears that the NYNY design was used on FLETCHER's built at other yards.

As far as dimensions of the NYNY-style platform, it appears to be the same or close to the BosNY-style platform. The most obvious structural difference, is that the NYNY-style platform has more "rounded" edges forward, while the BosNY-style has a more cutoff "square" appearance.



Getting good closeup images of the platform, with overhead views next to impossible, are rare. Here is an image of the platform installed on a sister, USS HUTCHINS, built by BosNY that had the same platform installed.



Here is an image of USS SIGSBEE with the NYNY-style platform showing the access opening in the portside bulwark and ladder location.



As for your structural questions about damage done, I refer you to the attached link to the BGP for USS SIGSBEE (DD-502). She was built at Federal Ship Bldg. and this BGP shows her in a different configuration to CHEVALIER when lost, but the below decks layout in the damaged area that didn't get separated from the rest of the ship is going to be the same. Particularly as far as location of oil tanks and such. Hopefully, these plans will provide you with the detail you need. I would need to guess what all you needed and try to post images. By studying the plans yourselves, you can assess want you need. That part of the ship would be a very tangled mess of structural metal, electrical, piping, etc., from the explosion and there are no photos and the Battle Damage Report is somewhat of a best guess. So, there really isn't an absolute appearance in trying to model the damage.

... https://www.hnsa.org/wp-content/uploads ... /dd502.pdf ....

And YES ... when the torpedo hit and exploded the 5-in ammo magazines, the degree of destruction is great.

I am looking for any detailed drawings of the accommodation ladder for FLETCHER class DDs in the 1950's/1960s. The Floating Drydock Plan Book does not include a drawing (or photos that I could find) of this item and we certainly carried one on USS STODDARD (DD-566) in the 1960s. My color photos show it stowed on the stbd. side amidships but I'm having a hard time determining if it was "painted" wood or actually wood; my tendencies are that it was wood with metal step treads and hardware. I don't think other than a 7 day port visit to Hong Kong and our 2 weeks Refresher Training where the ship was moored or anchored, was this ladder used while I was stationed aboard.

Any detailed info would be helpful.

Thanks,

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Accommodation Ladders on 1950-60's FLETCHER's, boy that will be hard to find good images of. I have seen where these were stowed onboard, but right now I have a hard time recalling seeing them in use. I actually had wondered how often they were used, you sort of answered that question ... not often. I really suspect the same ladders were used in WWII as well, so that may increase the number of possible images to explore. It will take me time to go through images, I know I don't have line drawings of them.

Hello everyone.

I am building a Fletcher-class DD model with interior, but I have run into an issue. The layouts I could find do not spectify the placement of the ship's frames and the photos of interiors I found bring in even more confusion. Some frames (1 in 4) are obviously to be much larger than the others. Some go all the way from the bottom and keel of the ship to the bottom side of the main deck, some don't. Could anyone please explain this to me and, if possible, specify the size and placement of the frames 55 to 70 and frames 130 to 140.

Thank you in advance.

Yurii,

First question I have is, what scale are you building your FLETCHER-class destroyer model to? Then which ship or sub-group are you modeling? AKA a Round-Bridge or Square-Bridge or a DDE conversion? Depending on your scale, some details maybe so small that they won't show up.

The Bath Iron Works "FLETCHER Class Engineering Drawings" DVD has a lot of details like this. These drawings were on microfilm rolls at the national Archives in College park, MD. As such they have limitations in reading numbers and some notes. ALSO, there are over 100 pages of drawings for transverses. Those are a lot of images to post. Also, there are 100's more drawings for the other structural "longitudinal frames" and "interior bulkheads", etc They are not broken down by "ranges" of transverses (like you have asked for "frames 55 to 70" and "frames 130 to 140"), they have individual or pairs of transverses. Examples in the ranges you ask about, there is a drawing for "transverses 65 and 68".

Now then I have posted below the two drawings for Transverses "65 and 68". The drawings are in TIFF format on the DVD and quite large file sizes. So I have converted these images to JPEG (20-22MB size) and downsized and cropped off excess boundary area to get these down to the 3.7MB range.

There are similar drawings for "Transverses 31-56", "Transverses 57 and 61", "Transverses 127, 133-1/2, and 137", etc. I have also posted the drawings for Transverses "31-56".

Transverses 65 and 68





Transverses 31-65

Thank you so much, Mr.Davis. I am building a tamiya 1/350 Fletcher kit into a USS Chevalier DD-451, and you just answered all of my questions regarding the interior of the forward part of the ship. I am quite literally all set for building that part. I got only one more thing to ask of you, if you don't mind: could you please post the same drawings, or at least one, for frames 132 and 137 which you mentioned?

Thanks again. I am most grateful.

Here are the images for this drawing. Instead of being in two images, this one has three images to capture the whole drawing. Mostly this was necessary because of a large number of notes. (Note that the middle of this drawing needed a tape repair. )

Chris,

I don't know how to answer your question. For the USN the deck was painted with a standard paint, "20-B Deck Blue" during most of the war. But as can been seen in onboard images, the decks took a lot of abuse from foot traffic and weather/water while at sea and staining from refueling operations. So at various times, there was visible faded and touch-up paint (yellow primer and fresh 20-B) making for a "spotty" appearance. The areas with non-skid, many time "rectangular pads" of non-skid material were cemented to the deck. Sometimes other types of non-skid that appears to be applied as a continuous roll or like a thick coat of rough "paint", were used (or tried out as an experiment). As with the paint, the non-skid material could and did wear off in places. The USN appeared to painted over the non-skid as they did the rest of the deck, in appearance "painted non-skid" looked more "flat" than only painted metal deck.

Bottomline, I feel there is no single "or right" answer to your question. Depending on what ship and timeframe you are modeling "may" lean to different treatments. A destroyer fresh out from the yard after completion will look different than a destroyer constantly busy for a few months with combat missions/duties.

Just as "examples" and by no means general practice, here are a couple of views of decks in combat zones. CO's and Chiefs may well be more demanding in maintaining a "ship-shape" appearance.

In this image, note the "light" areas which are places where yellow primer has been applied. In a couple of days these same areas very well would have fresh deck paint applied over them.



This image, shows something that is rare to see in photos, the use of "mats" on the navigation bridge. I don't know your background or age, but these types of mats were used in places like shops and factory floors when I was growing up (50+ years ago).



Here are a couple of "cropped" color images of a destroyer decks, that gives you an idea of how the deck paint looked with primer and how the non-skid looked after some wear. The yellow zinc chromate primer started out looking fairly bright, but faded to almost a "tan" appearance if not painted over in short order.

Rick,

Thanks for posting the great photo of NICHOLAS' pilot house & flag area. That's a big help for my build even though we're working on two different time periods - the flag boxes didn't change and that's a really good shot of them. Also, other items show up very clearly.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48