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 Post subject: Re: Smoke stack insignia
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 5:18 pm 
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Joe Wallace wrote:
Was there a logo or insignia on the front stack of the Hazelwood DD-531. Would it have been put on after fram refit. Joe

Hazelwood didn't receive FRAM, however she was a DASH test ship. Yes, looking at images, there is a logo or insignia there, but I can't make out what it is.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:15 pm 
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As said above, USS HAZELWOOD (DD-531) was a test ship for the DASH ASW helicopter program. As such she wasn't assigned to a fleet operational unit, but rather to a test development unit. This cropped image of USS HAZELWOOD's stack was taken in September 1961. I don't know if she could have been assigned to other units during her career as a DASH test ship.

HAZELWOOD's DANFS entry post the DASH conversion reads;

In 1958 Hazelwood began extensive testing of helicopters for antisubmarine warfare both in Narragansett Bay and out of the Naval Ordnance Laboratory in Maryland. Assigned to the Destroyer Development Division, she participated in tests on equipment used with radar and electronic counter-measure systems. Her primary research and development work involved the testing of the Drone Anti-Submarine Helicopter (DASH), an example of the Navy's continuing effort to apply the technological advances of modern science for the security of our nation and the free world. Hazelwood provided on board testing facilities and helped make possible the perfection of DASH, an advanced and vital ASW Weapons system. In August 1963 alone the drone helicopter made 1,000 landings on the versatile destroyer's flight deck.

In addition to experimental developments, Hazelwood continued to engage in the many duties assigned to a destroyer. As America confronted Russia over the introduction of offensive missiles into Cuba in October 1962, she steamed again to the troubled Caribbean for antisubmarine and surveillance patrols. Hazelwood arrived Guantanamo Naval Base 5 November, just after the quarantine of Cuba had gone into effect and remained on guard during the crisis, serving as a Gun Fire Support Ship for Task Force 84. When the nuclear submarine Thresher failed to surface 10 April 1963, Hazelwood immediately deployed to the scene of the tragedy with scientists from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Laboratories to begin a systematic search for the missing ship.

Hazelwood resumed testing of DASH during June and later in the year conducted on board trials of the Shipboard Landing Assist Device (SLAD). She continued both developmental and tactical operations along the East Coast during the next year. She decommissioned 19 March 1965, and entered the Atlantic Reserve Fleet. At present she is berthed at Norfolk. Va.


The designation "DES DEV GRU 2" would likely stand for "DESTROYER DEVELOPMENT GROUP 2". What is interesting, today "DEVGRU" is the designation for Seal Team Six!!!

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:36 pm 
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Color.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:03 am 
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Same idea, just layout differently. :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:12 pm 
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Thanks all for the info and photo. Joe


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:43 pm 
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Greetings all !!!!

I am currently working on a Tamiya 78012 "1/350 scale USS Fletcher" with photoetch set released by edcuard "eduard 53003".
My problem is the following: i wish to paint the model as indicated on Tamiya box (classic measure 12 mod) but when I started to apply
the photoetches I immediately realise that eduard provides a kit where the firing direction system includes an MK22 radar antenna which
seems to be not in line with the time when Fletcher was painted in measure 12 mod.
Can anyone tell me if this antenna (MK22) must be installed if displaying the ship in measure 12 mod or not?
According to some reports online, seems that DD445 have been updated by June 1943 in shipyard but I am not sure if this installation was done by that year and if the vessel was still showing this measure.

Hope to get some answers.
By the way I wish to thank you all for the support extended to all users here: by the years you suggested me a lot of improvents
that pushed me to improve my works too.
For this, thank you guys.


Here attached a pic from https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 84808.html related to mk 22 radar aereal.


Attachments:
File comment: mk 22 aereal circled in red
1435183732564.jpg
1435183732564.jpg [ 336.27 KiB | Viewed 1960 times ]


Last edited by Timmy C on Sat Feb 17, 2024 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Merged into Fletcher class thread. Please use the "Post Reply" function while reading an existing thread on the same ship class, thanks!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:41 am 
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Max,

If you are modeling USS FLETCHER as she appeared in Ms 12R(mod), definitely DON'T add the Mk 22. FLETCHER had just the Mk 4 radar as commissioned. On FLETCHER's the Mk 22 was only installed when the Mk 4 radar was replaced with the Mk 12 radar system. The Mk 12 radar started to be installed on new-built FLETCHER class units in the Spring of 1944. The Mk 22 radar was installed about six months after that. Upgrades to previously built units, lagged to late 1944 into 1945. Some units never got upgraded from Mk 4 during WWII. (On some BENSON and GLEAVES class units, the USN did install Mk 22 with the Mk 4, but it was found to be an unsatisfactory pairing and was replaced with a new smaller Mk 28 radar and antenna) The antennas for Mk 4 and Mk 12 are DIFFERENT. See the attached image, the Mk 4 is on the left and the Mk 12/22 is on the right.

I would not recommend using the Eduard Mk 4/12 radar antennas. All PE sets until recently, used one antenna for both Mk 4 and Mk 12, plus some of them were over-scaled and used the brackets for the Mk 12 antenna. Tom's Modelworks has updated Mk 4 and Mk 12 antennas to the correct size and can be bent to the proper shape. Toms Modelworks update is a small separate fret with a forming gage to help with getting the proper shape. (The small frets are added to item #3508 for the Tamiya kit, and separately as item #3591 for the small Mk 4 antenna fret alone ... as seen at Freetime ... https://freetimehobbies.com/1-350-toms- ... r-antenna/ ...). Another option, is to get the Mk 4 radar antenna 3-D printed from Black Cat. But this would be a pricey option which would require getting both the Mk 37 Director and the antenna. ... https://blackcatmodels.eu/en/gun-direct ... nna-x.html ... (note; don't install the optional box extensions on the back of the Mk 37 director) But, as an aside; getting the Black Cat version of the Mk 37 director with Mk 12/22, if modeling a ship with that pairing, is a REAL benefit because they have printed the small IFF antenna as well. AMAZING to me!!!

Also, please note that FLETCHER had the SC-1 air search radar as commissioned. NOT the SC-2 as Tamiya shows and includes in the kit.

USS FLETCHER wore Ms 12R(mod) camo from commissioning until the end of August 1942, when then the fantail twin 40-mm mount was installed. It is unclear what camo she was painted with when she departed the East Coast for the Pacific, due to a lack of photos. But, by December 1942, she had been repainted to Ms 21.


Attachments:
Mk 4 vs Mk 12.jpg
Mk 4 vs Mk 12.jpg [ 59.11 KiB | Viewed 1955 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:59 am 
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[quote="Rick E Davis"]Max,

If you are modeling USS FLETCHER as she appeared in Ms 12R(mod), definitely DON'T add the Mk 22.



Wow Rick thanks a lot for the tempestive info. It's incredible to see how much you are into fire control sistems history and general history of this destroyer class. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! You spared me from hours of failing on searching info on internet. So i will apply the measure 12R mod and only the Mk 37 system with Mk 4 antenna.
I am currently under shock on reading how manu info you provided to me :smallsmile: :smallsmile: Hope to pay you back even if seems impossible.

Thanks a lot mate and have a great day!!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:16 pm 
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Hello Fletcher fans!

I am in search of the bame that this Fletcher used to wear.

The picture has been shot in 1990 on the west coast of America to test the Goalkeeper CIWS for USN use. She shot down 3 vaoers, 3 exocets and 3 harpoon block 1C.

I found out that the boxes in front of the vridge are perhaps hedgehog shields.
So she seems to be modernised once in the 1950s/60s and left like that until dragged for target.

Thank you!


Attachments:
amerikaans-fregat-met-goalkeeper (1).jpg
amerikaans-fregat-met-goalkeeper (1).jpg [ 109 KiB | Viewed 1790 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:30 am 
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Thanks for asking this question its been driving me crazy trying to Id this ship I even when to navsource and open every fletcher file ( is ita fletcher class ?) and Gearing /AMS file also which in its self no bad thing and tried every possiable google search comb that I could thing of But couldn't nail it down
Graham


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:18 am 
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Mitchell,

Yes the evaluation ship is one of the Square-Bridge Fletchers recommissioned for the Korean War, based if no other reason than the tripod foremast. But, which one right now I can't answer with certainty ... without a little digging. Many of the stricken FLETCHER's were used as targets and as testbeds for missile/countermeasures tests. But, it is really hard to track which units and for what purpose these ex-destroyers were use for in this final service to the USN. Once a ship is stricken and designated for use as a target, the USN no longer tracks what is happening with those ships. They are simply a "target" and assumed to eventually be expended (or scrapped). In other words, records of what evaluations a particular "target" was used for, is only done/know by the test organization with custody of that "target vessel". But, by there nature, these evaluations are "classified" and little information is generally released to the public.

This unit appears to be one of the 4-Gun mod versions, where the armament was changed to four 5-in/38 mounts, and three twin 3-in RFG mounts. But, the ship has been heavily modified for this evaluation with additional test vans also added.

The last of the FLETCHER's were decommissioned and stricken in the early 1970's. Most were used as targets and sunk prior to 1980. However, a few units remained as targets or for evaluations after that period by Pt Mugu USN NAS.

Units known to have been targets and test vessel in 1980's and beyond are;

ex-USS STODDARD (DD-566), finally sunk on 22 July 1997
ex-USS PICKING (DD-685), finally sunk on 27 February 1997

Unfortunately, several former FLETCHER class units have incomplete fate information. But, all have been reported as sunk prior to 1980.

But, I did find this report on the USSSTODDARD.org website that states;

... http://ussstoddard.org/weaponstest.html ... and ... http://ussstoddard.org/R2D2%20with%20Attitude_1.htm ...

A year long round of real world tests against all kinds of targets – including live warheads – were undertaken. Lessons learned from these tests were incorporated into the Block 1 version of Phalanx. From June 1985 through early 1990 extensive tests against Block 1 Phalanx were conducted aboard STODDARD that led to Block 1, Baseline 1 and 2 improvements. These tests led to the development of the Block 1A variant that introduced an updated computer with software designed to engage targets doing high-G and diving maneuvers.

But no mention of testing the Goalkeeper. HOWEVER, another story at the same website ... http://ussstoddard.org/weaponstestswopes.html ... has the final answer;

After General Dynamics finished testing the various versions of their "Phalanx" CIWS system, [b]Signal/General Electric got to use the ship to test their "Goal Keeper" 30mm system. After a test, we'd fly back to the ship, and that gun would swing around and point right at us! We'd always try to approach from ahead, so that it wouldn't target us. (The helicopter's blade-tip speed is in the same ball park as some surface skimmers....)[/b]

Mystery solved!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:07 am 
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Mitchell, Rick E. Davis, Graham, et al....

YES, this is ex-USS STODDARD (DD-566) - my first duty station after boot camp. I am currently building a 1/144 scale model of her in her last config. prior to her 1969 final decommissioning. That build log is over in Picture Post/Works In Progress...

DD-566 was involved in the missile test programs of the 1970s and 1980s in proving the abilities of the PHALLANX CIWS Block 1 as Rick has so stated. Here are a few other photos that one of our reunion assn. members sent to me - he was a helicopter pilot ferrying crew on/off SWISS LADDER 566 (as she was then called) during those tests off the California coast:
Attachment:
SW566_1.JPG
SW566_1.JPG [ 104.6 KiB | Viewed 1739 times ]

Attachment:
SW566_3.JPG
SW566_3.JPG [ 141.15 KiB | Viewed 1739 times ]

Attachment:
SW566_4.JPG
SW566_4.JPG [ 102.43 KiB | Viewed 1739 times ]

The photo below has commentary from the photographer (Brian Swopes, the chopper pilot) regarding the various equipment boxes located on the ship:
Attachment:
SW566_5.JPG
SW566_5.JPG [ 103.93 KiB | Viewed 1738 times ]

ex-USS STODDARD (DD-566) was finally sunk in 1997 by SEAL teams off the Hawaiian coast during a SINKEX operation - it took roughly 22 minutes to go down.

Hank Strub
PN3, OC Division
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 1966-68

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Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:40 am 
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Rick & BB62Vet
Thanks for that info
Graham


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:01 pm 
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Good evening. I’m new here and this is my first post. I’m also confused as a chameleon inside a box of Skittles on how to achieve my goal in building the ship my dad was on - USS Wadleigh. He served on that ship during peacetime.

Here’s my story:

I remember as a kid seeing a couple destroyer kits at his parents’ den, the USS Wadleigh and a destroyer escort ship, USS Courtney. My guess my dad got them while he was in the Navy - most likely they were a keepsake display pieces than a model kit.

My dilemma:

I acquired a 1/350 scale Tamiya USS Fletcher destroyer kit (from a trade with a fellow member over at Scale Plastic Aircraft Modeler forums. aka: SPAM) with intention to build as USS Wadleigh DD-689. I knew the Wadleigh has a square bridge but didn’t realize the Tamiya Fletcher kit has the round bridge. Now, I’m at a loss on how to proceed.

I know Trumpeter has a Fletcher class destroyer, USS Sullivans with the square bridge. Is it possible to take that square bridge from USS Sullivan’s destroyer kit to the Tamiya Fletcher kit?

What other differences I should be aware of. I looked in Navsource site but am I missing key differences? Are there different guns (AA guns), radar, mast, etc... I should be aware of to build the correct destroyer my dad served on? I’ve looked everywhere for aftermarket products but I’m not having any luck. Even if I have to swap/pirate parts from the Sullivans kit to do it.

Any help, advice, direction on how to proceed would mean a lot to me. My dad passed away in 2017 and have since promised myself to build the ship my dad served on. I wished I had built it for dad before he passed on. He would have loved it. If successful, I want to build another Wadleigh for my sister as a surprise. Thank you in advance for reading my post.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:20 pm 
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Welcome. Wadleigh was a Bath built square bridge. Model Monkey makes a Bath pattern square bridge, you'll need to get the CIC deck as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:16 am 
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Black Sheep,

You didn't say when your dad was stationed on USS WADLEIGH (DD-689). WADLEIGH was recommissioned for the Korea War mobilization in 1951 and upgraded to the "4-Gun" configuration in 1953. She served in the active USN until being decommissioned on 26 June 1962. She was transferred to Chile in 1963.
... https://www.history.navy.mil/research/h ... leigh.html ...

USS WADLEIGH remained in the 4-Gun mod during her post-WWII USN service, but had several sensor upgrades (mostly to ECM) and modifications to her ASW and torpedo armament. She also had the Command Quarters added behind the bridge. There are no kits of a 4-Gun Fletcher in any scale. Modifying the Trumpeter "THE SULLIVANS" 1/350 scale kit would be the best option. Some of the mods can be scratch made, but other things like armament are best procured from 3-D printer firms. The twin 3-in RFG mounts have recently been introduced by Black Cat. Model Monkey make nice bridge replacements (the Trumpeter Navigation Bridge shape is off). Black Cat and Model Monkey both make the 5-in/38 mounts which are better than the Trumpeter kit mounts. Most of the other items you see in these images are also available. The SPS-6C radar antenna may be a problem, but hopefully Black Cat or some else will make that very common USN radar antenna in the near future.

If you know when your Dad served onboard WADLEIGH, I can be more specific about alterations.

Below are three images that span WADLEIGH's 1953 to 1961 career; in 1953, in about 1957-8, and in 1961.

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:30 am 
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Black Sheep -
First, welcome to SMF!!!
Secondly - you know that abbreviates to BS, don't you? Just thought I'd point that out!!! LOL :big_grin:

Anyhoo....as Rick has so stated there are a few things to decide before you start -
1) When was your dad's service aboard WADLEIGH?
2) What scale do you wish to build the model - size DOES matter here!!
3) Is this your first model ship and if so, what scratch building abilities do you have? Referring to Q1 will determine if 3rd party aftermarket parts are available or you will need to construct from scratch.

Once you've answered those questions, proceed with caution!!! This can get involved!! :doh_1:

I served aboard a 4-gun configured FLETCHER destroyer during the Vietnam War and am currently building a model of my ship USS STODDARD (DD-566) - I have a build log over on Picture Post/Works in Progress - viewtopic.php?f=59&t=303053#p910675
My model is based on the 1/144 scale Revell (Germany) kit - USS FLETCHER - but that's where the similarities end - I am basically using the hull and some of the other parts but either scratchbuilding or 3D design/printing all of the superstructure/masts/RADARs, etc. I have purchased some items from Model Monkey and a few various Shapeways 3D designers, but since learning 3D design/printing am now doing my own. You can refer to my build as well as another very similar build by Willie on his former ship - Spanish Navy destroyer JORGE JUAN - also on the same sub-forum. His build is using the same kit and converting it solely scratch building all the necessary parts. JORGE JUAN was the former U.S. destroyer USS McGOWEN and in terms of details is probably closer to WADLEIGH than STODDARD.

I would suggest that after you've decided on Q1-Q3, then go to The Floating Drydock website (https://floatingdrydock.com/) and purchase a copy of their PLAN BOOK - The FLETCHER Class - it is only available as an E-Book, but you can take the CD to a print shop and get it printed in 11x17 sheets - small expense, but worth it. Along with this you'll need a set of good plans for the model - they also sell what's called a Booklet of General Plans which is a general guide for the overall class of ships and can vary ship to ship. Doesn't matter - you won't be making a trip to Nati'l Archives to hunt down WADLEIGH blueprints any time soon as they are closed to the public; this is the next best source. TFD has a set of G Series plans for USS SIGSBEE or USS BOYD which are dated in the 1960s and would be similar to WADLEIGH in the 60's. You just need to look over their website and see what's available. The E-Plan book shows the ship in her original configuration - 1940s, so much of this will need to be modified. But, it is a starting point to familiarize yourself with the FLETCHER class DD and how they were configured, etc.

Based on your decisions already made (date of ship's life/scale, etc.) you'll have a few choices of kits as already mentioned. I would recommend the 1/144 scale as it is a bit larger, can show more detail, and generally is easier to work with than a smaller scale model. But, that's up to you.

I could go on and on as this gets involved depending on your desire and goal, etc. - for me it's personal as is Willie's build so we tend to go overboard :eyes_spinning: in trying to get everything JUST SO - but, enough for an opening salvo!

Hope this is helpful and not confusing!!

Hank

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Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:01 pm 
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Hank,

I pointed Black Sheep to 1/350 scale for a couple of reasons, this is his first model build (ship at least) and he is interested in modeling his father's ship. I'm unsure of how much effort he wants in going for accuracy with this kit. So I have so far only pointed him to the basic things he would need to modify a Trumpeter kit to a 4-Gun unit. It is up to him on how much effort he desires in accuracy detailing. The Revell 1/144 FLETCHER scale kit (Round-Bridge to boot) brings the cost and level of work required at least four times what a 1/350 scale kit would be. I'm afraid that pointing him to going to the effort you and Willie are going would scare the c--p out of him from building a model. :huh: But, reviewing what you guys have done, is a good reference to see what a 4-Gun looked like. But, both of your builds are late 1960's configurations (with Mk 32 ASW TT mounts), not applicable to the WADLEIGH that was decommissioned in 1962. :big_grin:

DavidP,

Black Cat is desiring to build a SQUARE-BRIDGE FLETCHER with the post-WWII 4-Gun conversion. The USS SIGSBEE doesn't meet any of these criteria. Even the interior layout was altered from the WWII layout with the 4-Gun conversion. Other than being a free download and a curiosity set of drawings of a typical ROUND-BRIDGE FLETCHER mid-WWII, it would be of little use for his build.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:26 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
Rick, Hank was saying the TFD set of the G Series plans for USS SIGSBEE was 1960's wereas I showed it was 1944. I do have the Booklet of General Plans USS Conner DD-582 1959 that is a 4 gun Fletcher if needed.


I stand corrected - I meant to call out USS STEMBEL (DD-644) instead of SIGSBEE as her plans ARE vintage 1944. BOYD & STEMBEL are '60s with STEMBEL being 1963 issue.

Rick - You are correct in that a 1/350th scale kit would be easier and less involved, esp. for a 1st timer. Actually, if I had to do it over again, I would locate a 1/96 scale hull and build it to that scale - MUCH easier on the eyes, hands, etc.!!!

We now return to your normal Bat Channel, Programming, etc...... :doh_1:

Hank

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Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:49 pm 
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Thank you for your responses. I've been doing model kits of all genres since I was around 5, 6 or 7 years old. I've done ship kits through my youth/teen years from battleships, carriers, cruisers, a couple destroyers, submarines even the USS Constitution sailing ship. LOL! I recently did Revell's 1/350 scale Mighty Mo earlier this year. Not too bad but good enough for me considering I attempted my first rigging on her. Nothing to extravagance but the basic riggings. So far my cat nor the missus and son has broken a rigging wire. LOL!!

I'm up for a challenege because this hobby is what motivates me to venture out of my comfort zone a little bit. I won't know until I try and I'm willing to take that risk.

I do need to research more of my dad's Naval service aboard both the Wadleigh and Courtney. Once I findt the answers you seek, you can guide me in the right direction on what I need to do. I do have a photo of his ship as well and have to find that too.


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