The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:55 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1827 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 88, 89, 90, 91, 92  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Posts: 6
Thanks again Model Monkey! Your work was a huge help.

On a somewhat unrelated note, there are two pieces of equipment that I'd like help identifying (that I've noticed in many Fletcher-class photos).

1) The device between the aft torpedo mount and turret 53. It usually sits on the main deck level.

2) The cylinders stacked on the fantail between the depth charge racks. They're longer and narrower than depth charges and are oriented in line with the ship (the opposite of the depth charges).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 1452
Location: Mocksville, NC
Raging Bull wrote:
Quote:
On a somewhat unrelated note, there are two pieces of equipment that I'd like help identifying (that I've noticed in many Fletcher-class photos).

1) The device between the aft torpedo mount and turret 53. It usually sits on the main deck level.

2) The cylinders stacked on the fantail between the depth charge racks. They're longer and narrower than depth charges and are oriented in line with the ship (the opposite of the depth charges).


Answers:

1) (you mean the item that looks like a "T"?) That is the torpedo crane used for loading/unloading the after torpedo tubes.

2) Those are quad smoke generator skids for "making smoke" during battle maneuvers - such as "zig-zag" steaming or attempting to avoid surface enemy visual detection, etc.

Hope this answers your questions.

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Posts: 6
Thanks for the quick reply!

1) Not the torpedo crane, there's another device of some kind that sits between the deck houses on the centerline, just aft of the aft torpedo mount.

2) Smoke generators are what I suspected, but I didn't want to assume so.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:46 pm 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3280
Sounds like you are asking about the 5-in gun practice loader.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Posts: 6
After a quick google, yep. It's the 5 inch gun practice loader. Thanks for the help!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:37 pm
Posts: 3
Hello, Everyone. First-time poster here.

I'm not currently building any models, but I do have a bunch of technical questions about Fletcher-class destroyers. After reading this epic thread in its entirety, I'm convinced that this is the best place to ask them on all the internet. So without further ado:

1. About a million pages ago, somebody quoted a sailor from the Nicholas saying that his ship briefly carried thirteen 20mm Oerlikon machine cannons, but that some of them had to be removed because their unrestricted arcs of fire made them a menace to ship and crew. As soon as I read that, I went poking around the web looking for pictures, but the closest thing I could find was a shot of another early Fletcher-- I want so say it was Chevalier-- carrying eleven: the original six, plus three on the fantail, one on the roof of the pilot house, and one on an 02-level platform attached to the front of the bridge. Nicholas didn't have such a platform, to the best of my knowledge, so at best, that image of Chevalier might account for the placement of ten of her Oerlikons. Does anyone know for sure where Nicholas squeezed in all those 20's?

2. As has been discussed at several points in this thread, a few of the earliest Fletchers delivered went to war with the quadruple 1.1" machine cannon of the original design as their medium AA weapon, instead of the twin 40mm Bofors that became the standard as built. But what about the rest of the original design's armament? Did any of the early ships ever have to make do with four .50-caliber machine guns as their light AA? Did any of them ever carry the laughably inadequate depth-charge battery envisioned in 1941?

3. At least four of the Fletchers converted to DDEs in 1949-1950 initially kept their forward set of torpedo tubes. Does anyone know if those trainable tubes were carried in addition to the four fixed tubes enclosed by the after deckhouse? Or was it expected at the beginning of the conversion program that the 21" antisubmarine homing torpedo would be compatible with the wartime Mk 14 and Mk 15 tubes, so that the DDEs got their fixed tubes only after the trainable ones were removed?

4. The earliest Fletcher DDEs had their K-guns moved forward until they were mostly hidden behind the spray bulwarks protecting the main deck just abaft the bridge, presumably to clear the way for the enclosed torpedo tubes. By the mid-60's, the K-guns were gone, and the ships had triple Mk 32 torpedo tubes between the funnels amidships. But what about in the interim? The DDEs seem like natural candidates for the catapult-launched homing torpedoes that preceded the Mk 32 system, but I've never seen a photo of one unambiguously carrying such weapons. Were they ever used by the Fletcher DDEs? And if so, where on the ships were they installed?

5. Does anyone know why O'Bannon, alone among the DDEs, never got her Mk 108 launcher for Weapon A, and instead carried a trainable Hedgehog until the end of her career?

6. Does anyone know the precise dates of Hazelwood's conversion with the prototype DASH installation?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 pm 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3280
Well, I'll try to answer your questions.

1. As background. The first three BWI-built units went to the Pacific with six 20-mm guns (two before the bridge and four amidships on main deck) for USS NICHOLAS and USS O'BANNON, and seven guns (same plus the elevated platform before the bridge) on USS CHEVALIER. During the Guadalcanal campaign EVERY SHIP wanted more AA-guns. Even army 50-cal MGs were installed on some ships ... and never cataloged. The 20-mm guns could be installed by tenders and even crews themselves. The Pacific Fleet units in theater (or elsewhere?) figured out that they could add one (or in at least one case two) 20-mm guns atop the pilothouse. So all three BIW units were so equipped. This really helped with forward fire arc. In the Fall of 1942, a directive was sent out authorizing an extra 20-mm for any destroyer with six or less 20-mm guns. Soon it appears many destroyers took advantage of the availability of extra 20-mm guns, and even more guns were installed. USS NICHOLAS and USS O'BANNON were authorized TEN 20-mm guns and USS CHEVALIER was authorized ELEVEN 20-mm guns, with three installed on the fantail. Dave McComb told me the story that the Gunnery Officer on USS NICHOLAS told him that they at one point had thirteen 20-mm guns. I don't always believe such claims when there are no photos, but since he was the Gunnery Officer, I thought he was more creditable. I looked and looked for photographic evidence or mention in like Deck Logs/War Diaries and found nothing. Plus I could never figure out WHERE they could have installed three more 20-mm guns on USS NICHOLAS beyond the ten already there. There just wasn't any good real estate left for them. Anyway, the Gunnery Officer had the "extra" 20-mm guns removed after he was the one who got wounded by a round going into the bridge.

2. The FLETCHER class when ordered, had four 50-cal MGs authorized along with the quad 1.1-in mount. All four 50-cal MGs were to be installed forward of the bridge, two per side. However, before the first units were anywhere close to being completed, the 50-cal MGs were deleted from the design and six 20-mm guns added. As far as I can tell, the FLETCHER's had the close to the same depth charge battery as completed from contract design. The only difference was they started out originally with only four K-Guns and fewer depth charges. The as completed the all the FLETCHERS had six K-guns and stated with that number. The total number of charges carried was increased in late 1942, but not the number of drop tracks and K-Guns.

3 and 4. The FLETCHER class DDE conversions that retained the Mk 14 torpedo tubes mount, only did so because the planned four fixed tubes and ASW torpedos for them were not available. The Mk 14 mount served to keep the planned displacement as well. That was the same reason that the DDE design retained the K-guns. Yes some, but not all, the DDE's had the Mk 2 TLS (Torpedo Launch System) or the PMGL (No kidding ... Poor Man Gravity Launcher on the fantail) for the Mk 32 torpedoes installed during the 1950s. See attached image of USS WALKER (DDE-517) in July 1956. Depending on IF they actually had/carried ASW torpedoes for their fixed tubes. When the Mk 2 TLS, with two Mk 4 "over the side" launchers, were installed, they replaced the six K-Guns in the same location behind the spray bulwarks making seeing them difficult. The Mk 2 TLS also, rather unsuccessfully, was used to launch the Mk 45 ASW torpedoes, before the Mk 32 ASW torpedo tubes were available.

5. The first batch of FLETCHER class DDE's that had the Mk 15 trainable HH installed (the ones with pole foremast), slowly had the Mk 15 replaced with the Mk 108 rocket launcher during refits in the 1950s' USS O'BANNON was the last unit needing the upgrade. The next to the last FLETCHER DDE to get the Mk 108, did so in 1957. The USN decided to wait and to upgrade USS O'BANNON during her FRAM II upgrade, which as is known, was cancelled. Expecting that she would soon be decommissioned, they didn't "upgrade" her to the Mk 108. The Vietnam War saved her for duty as a gunfire support unit along with most of the remaining all-gun FLETCHERs left at that time.

6. USS HAZELWOOD was in the Boston NSY from 1 August to 4 November 1957, and had the SPS-28 radar installed. In late 1958 she was selected to be the DASH test ship. She went back into Boston NSY and was so modified between 27 March to 12 June 1959. Photos of her near the end of her conversion are dated June 1959.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:37 pm
Posts: 3
That was very informative, as I was confident it would be. Thank you.

Rick E Davis wrote:
I looked and looked for photographic evidence or mention in like Deck Logs/War Diaries and found nothing. Plus I could never figure out WHERE they could have installed three more 20-mm guns on USS NICHOLAS beyond the ten already there. There just wasn't any good real estate left for them.

That was my thinking, too. I mean, I suppose there might technically have been room for one way out on the bow, like where some of the British Hunt-class destroyers had a single 2pdr pom-pom, but that seems like utter madness on a ship as wet as a Fletcher. Maybe add a third pair in the waist, more or less in line with the second funnel?

Rick E Davis wrote:
The first batch of FLETCHER class DDE's that had the Mk 15 trainable HH installed (the ones with pole foremast), slowly had the Mk 15 replaced with the Mk 108 rocket launcher during refits in the 1950s' USS O'BANNON was the last unit needing the upgrade. The next to the last FLETCHER DDE to get the Mk 108, did so in 1957. The USN decided to wait and to upgrade USS O'BANNON during her FRAM II upgrade, which as is known, was cancelled. Expecting that she would soon be decommissioned, they didn't "upgrade" her to the Mk 108. The Vietnam War saved her for duty as a gunfire support unit along with most of the remaining all-gun FLETCHERs left at that time.

This raises another couple questions I hadn't thought of: Was the original plan to put all sixteen (or however many it was) Fletcher DDEs through FRAM II reconstruction, or did they just want four to create one homogenous division? Either way, were the cancellations just a matter of FRAM II Fletchers turning out to be not enough bang for too much buck, or did the three that were delivered suffer from some specific, unacceptable drawback?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:53 am 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3280
The plan was to upgrade all eighteen of the FLETCHER class DDE's to FRAM II standards. None of the FLETCHER "Fleet Destroyers" were proposed for FRAM upgrades.

The FRAM program ran into cost-overrun issues and after the first three FLETCHER FRAM II upgrades, upgrades for the remaining units were cancelled. The cost cutting also impacted several SUMNER class (I think 21 units) FRAM II upgrades and the proposed FRAM upgrade of the SUMNER class DMs into destroyers again.

Dr Friedman has a discussion about the FRAM program and what was planned and what got done, in his USN DESTROYER book.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Fletcher Refit Info
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:29 am
Posts: 2
Attachment:
KIDD-Fantail-8Feb45.jpg
KIDD-Fantail-8Feb45.jpg [ 107.76 KiB | Viewed 662 times ]

Hello, I am currently working on a fletcher model and have been trying to determine the Layout of the twin 20mm guns on the fantail of the DD661 in 1945 The onl picture I have found seems to show this layout if those are actually twin 20's.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 2209
singles http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/05661192.jpg http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/0566174.jpg http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0566135.jpg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:25 am 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3280
First off when in 1945 are you wishing to model USS KIDD?

USS KIDD (DD-661) was in the Six 40-mm (three twin 40-mm mounts and ten single 20-mm guns) until her early 1945 overhaul at MINY (26 Dec 1944 to 10 Feb 1945). When she emerged, the image you posted shows her in February 1945, she had been upgraded to the Ten 40-mm configuration with five twin 40-mm mounts and seven single 20-mm guns. (Twin 20-mm mounts weren't authorized for FLETCHERS until April 1945) After her kamikaze damage she was repaired at HPNY from 25 May to about 1 August 1945, to the Anti-Kamikaze Mod with two quad 40-mm and three twin 40-mm mounts and six twin 20-mm mounts. The twin 20-mm guns were located two per side on the main deck amidships and two 20-mm mounts on the fantail. USS KIDD didn't return to the war zone before the war with Japan ended.

The images David posted shows USS KIDD as she appears today as a museum ship. USS KIDD served post WWII when recommissioned for the Korean War. She continued to serve into the mid-1960s. As such she had a lot of mods done to her. The USS KIDD museum crew are working at returning her to as near August 1945 configuration as they can. They are slowly removing 1950s equipment and installing WWII era equipment and fabricating things like bulwarks around weapons. The 20-mm guns were removed from FLETCHERS in 1953. So all new bulwarks and mount foundations have to be installed. Currently, the fantail arrangement they have for 20-mm guns isn't correct.

I don't have a clear overhead view of USS KIDD's fantail arrangement in August 1945. But it appears to be like the arrangement seen in the attached images of USS KIMBERLY (DD-521), USS YARNALL (DD-541), and USS HALSEY POWELL. You can see the shape of the bulwark around the 20-mm guns and the cutdown to the bulwark towards port and starboard and the extensions for the ready use ammo lockers. This arrangement was a pretty standard design used on most of the Anti-Kamikaze Mod FLETCHERS.

Image

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:29 am
Posts: 2
First of all, thank You, David, for the USS Kidd Photo's I have been on that ship several times and had even paid a blueprint company to copy the blueprints for me. But turns out They sent the company the 50's era prints. Either way, they have been useful.

And now for Rick to answer your question concerning when in 45 was I wishing to model her well it appears I want after the kamikaze attack since I had already started out with the quad '40s.
I had already been told that the current configuration on the USS KIDD fantail was incorrect. So I suspect I will attempt to recreate the fantail using the pictures you have supplied of the gun tub and its layout.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:39 am 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3280
Some of the other retro-modifications on USS KIDD are not quite right as well, but not as noticeable as the fantail 20-mm guns. By the time USS KIDD was retired from service (she was a NRT ship for a number of years before being mothballed), she had several bulwarks removed including those around the quad 40-mm mounts (and of course the quad 40-mm mounts themselves). They have done their best to duplicate bulwarks, but lack a lot of the details apparent in period photos.

The below deck modifications from the 1950s done to improve habitability, are the ones they probably won't be able to change.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:49 am
Posts: 57
Location: UK South East
Hi all, now this may have been asked before but with 91 pages to search through I sort of gave in after 15.

I'm looking to do one of the Fletchers in 1/350 with the catapult mounted in place of the aft torpedo tubes and with the deck house cut down and turret removed. I've found some photos but lack drawings of the deck house the catapult was mounted on and what other equipment was fitted and where. Any help appriciated.

If it makes a difference I'll settle on USS Stevens DD-479.

_________________
On the slip - all 1/350
USS Gearing - Dragon kit w/AM
USS Fletcher - Tamiya w/GMM PE and L'Arsenal resin
HMS Terrapin - Starling models T-Class Sub
Enrico Tazzoli - EVA models
O-16 - Pacific Coast models


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:41 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 10717
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
Here's a thread that would be of interest by someone who did a CAD model of a Fletcher catapult: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=88150&hilit=fletcher+catapult

Also on page 35 of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8105&p=332172&hilit=fletcher+catapult#p332155

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:49 am
Posts: 57
Location: UK South East
Timmy C wrote:
Here's a thread that would be of interest by someone who did a CAD model of a Fletcher catapult: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=88150&hilit=fletcher+catapult

Also on page 35 of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8105&p=332172&hilit=fletcher+catapult#p332155


Thank you Timmy, gives me something to work on.

_________________
On the slip - all 1/350
USS Gearing - Dragon kit w/AM
USS Fletcher - Tamiya w/GMM PE and L'Arsenal resin
HMS Terrapin - Starling models T-Class Sub
Enrico Tazzoli - EVA models
O-16 - Pacific Coast models


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:20 pm
Posts: 1
Paul Allen’s research vessel, the ‘Petrel’, has just found Fletcher-class DD-467 'Strong', which was torpedoed in Kula Gulf, off the Solomon Islands, on July 5, 1943. My uncle Albert Oberg [1921-1943], USNA '42, LTJG USN, grandson of Swedish immigrants, raised in Brooklyn, loved the sea, beloved by his shipmates, was mortally wounded in the sinking of 'Strong' in action in the South Pacific while assisting crew evacuation to another ship while under fire from Japanese shore batteries. He died of injuries while eluding Japanese patrols on Arundel Island, Solomons, was buried by surviving shipmates [only one of whom returned alive]. His body was never recovered, and he left behind a widowed mother and grieving fiancée. I wasn't even born yet, but we remember.

RV PETREL: https://paulallen.com/Indepth/Petrel/
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/rvpetrel/?epa=SEARCH_BOX


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:08 am 
Online

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3280
Thanks, that is quite interesting. A great find, but also another sad story for those of her crew lost. I have had a keen interest in the destroyer and crew that came alongside USS STRONG and succeeded in getting most of her crew off, 7 officers and 232 enlisted, about 75% of the crew. The rescue destroyer was USS CHEVALIER (DD-451), a sister ship built at BIW. The account of the torpedoing of USS STRONG (DD-467) and USS CHEVALIER coming to her rescue in the face of enemy fire from her CHEVALIER's War Diary is attached. Below the account is a picture of USS CHEVALIER tied to the pier at Tulagi where she off-loaded STRONG's crew survivors on 6 July 1943. Ironically, USS CHEVALIER herself was sunk by a torpedo three months later.

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:19 am
Posts: 171
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Greetings all,

I'm looking for some "relatively" up close pictures of the early Fletcher Torpedo Loading Crane (the ones mounted on the starboard side aside the aft stack). I've managed to look through the first roughly 72 pages of this tread and can't find anything. In particular what I'm looking to define is the chain falls and trolley that hang from the crane. Once I can work that into the assembly my crane is done and I can move on.

thanks in advance,

Bruce

_________________
Bruce
OSC USN-Ret
Image

Currently on the building ways:
1/144 USS San Francisco CA-38
1/144 USS Stevens DD-479
1/144 USS Cook Inlet AVP-36
1/350 USS Hughes DD-410


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1827 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 88, 89, 90, 91, 92  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group