The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:19 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1843 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 93  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:08 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:31 pm
Posts: 3421
Location: Plattsburg, Missouri
Great thread guys, I like the fact that we can discuss this without any blood shed.
An observation.

The photo's that I mentioned of MS-12 mod being painted out. I suspect are MS-12 mod being repainted. The well published photo's of O'Bannon at anchor in the MS-12 mod scheme is obviously taken after the Inclining experiments as she now has her Fire control radar fitted. That was missing (not censored) in the June 21 photo's. The camo pattern appears to be different too.

Image

So we can conclude that O'Bannon wore MS-12 mod a bit longer. At some point before the Nov. 13th 1942 battle she was repainted into MS-21. So now the big question is when and did she have the splotches painted over before leaving for the Pacific.

_________________
Timothy Dike
Owner & Administrator
ModelWarships.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Maryland
DIBBER27 wrote:

Ron I got the 5-O because I saw on shipcamoflage.com that she was in MS-14 after MS-12. Just wanted to be ready what ever color I went with.I did think it was intresting that the artwork on the cover showed the 3 20MM on the stern.


Makes sense. Do be aware there are some errors in the database that Tracy is fixing as time and research allows. It's still the best resource we currently have and is a great place to start. It is mostly correct though. Randy, Tracy and myself among others are working to check it and Tracy does the fixes to the actual database. I have to send him corrections for BB-55 and the Somers class Since I can nail most of those to the month they changed.

_________________
How do I get the pen to write here? Now my screen's all smeared with ink.........


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:04 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Washington state
As everyone knows, many of the detailed books on the Fletcher class destroyers are out of print. I have the Squadron book on Fletchers, the Cassin Young book and the “general” WWII destroyer books. I have collected many pictures off the web but there are certain areas on the Fletcher class ship I need help with. Please refer to the following questions for the 1943-1945 Fletcher class:

#1. On the quintuple torpedo mount, is there only one “power drive” unit on the lower side, toward the back end of the tubes (left side) or does each tube have that unit underneath?

#2. Does anyone have any detailed views of the large 30”? or 36”? searchlight? Is it the same searchlight used on the USS Missouri?

#3. Can someone describe the inside construction of the flag lockers?

#4. Anyone have close up drawings of the quintuple torpedo mounts (launchers) from different sides?

#5. Can someone describe the inside of the exhaust stacks, are they divided with walls, or do they just have a grill at the top?

#6. Anyone have drawings or closeup photos of the magnetic compass and stand?

#7. When did the Fletchers start using the sonar domes on the forward part of the keel?

#8 Was the deck sheer “curve” made up of flat section plates, and if so how large was each flat plate piece? And does anyone know why the aft deck was slightly concave near the aft depth charges?

#9 Were any round bridge Fletchers converted to square bridges?

#10 Looking at hull cross section drawings of the Fletchers, I noticed all the bulkheads and superstructure walls are perpendicular to the keel, it also looks like the each deck was not at right angles to the walls, is this true?

#11 Pictures of the 20mm ready ammo lockers on deck show them raised up off the deck , can anyone describe the supports?

Thanks for any tips and clues in helping answer these questions, please excuse my multiple posts.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Fletcher questions
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:06 pm 
You are asking some "fine detail" questions here. Are you building a 1:1 scale Fletcher in the Basement? :-) I have some references at home that may answer some of your questions. Since I'm travling it will be awhile before I can look them up. Floating Drydock produced a "LARGE" format book of the Fletcher class with many drawings and photos of onboard equipment ... it may still be available? The one question in your list that I can answer is ... No none of the early Round Bridge Fletcher's were rebuilt to the Square Bridge configuration.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:04 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Washington state
Rick, I'm building a 1/96 scale model, and because of time and space constraints (I already have many display cases of other models, other than ships) I want this one to be the best I can build. I'm planning on spending years on it. My earlier attempts at major scratchbuilding were poor partly due to the lack of information. I would appreciate any help to these questions, Steve Larson has helped me also. For me, part of the fun of scratchbuilding is to learn as much about the ship as possible. Thanks for your help.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:03 pm
Posts: 436
Location: SoCal
Sorry to change the subject so soon but does anyone have any info of the Killen besides that she was hit by a Kamikaze and torpedoed a Japanese cruiser.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:16 am 
Mike,

I'm not sure that I could find all of the info you would like in the books I have or in most drawings available in them. The thought occured to me that you may want to visit a few of the museum Fletcher's that exist. The Cassin Young is at Boston near the USS Constitution. The USS Kidd is, I think, near Baton Rogue (I have yet to get there), The Sullivans (A 4-5" gun/6-3" post KW mod) is at Buffalo, and soon ... we hope ... the former USS John Rodgers is to return from Mexican Service as the only original round bridge Fletcher and is almost a perfect WWII example. Also, the ex-USS Charette is a museum in Greece ... but that is a bit of a drive. :-) However, there are many and I do mean many photos of her, some close-up onboard shots, at the navsource website ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/581.htm ... Otherwise, the Kidd and Cassin Young are 5-gun units that were modified after WWII for service in the 1950-60's, but to one extent or another are being restored to "near WWII" condition.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 6709
Location: In the hills of North Jersey
Rick E Davis wrote:
The Fletcher had the second twin 40mm installed on her stern I think in early October (or it may have been late September?) and I suspect, but don't know for sure, was repainted to either Ms-18 or 22 (or maybe even Ms-21) while getting that mod done.


I had started to paint the Tamiya kit in Ms12R, but screwed up the camo on the hull and ended up painting the hull 5N. So now I have a 5N hull and 5H upperworks. Without having to now repaint the upperworks 5N, I'd like to do an early round bridge in Ms18. Were any of the early round bridge Fletchers definitely in Ms18?

Edit: Okay, I looked around the Destroyer Home page and found one. Looks like the Strong was in Ms18. Is that two 40mm twins she is carrying?

http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... ng_01.html

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:17 pm 
I don't have a complete list of the Fletcher's in Ms-18 and the only ones I have seen in photos are the early round bridge types. Go to page 2 of this string for a post I made (I think around 7 July) listing the Ms-18 units I know of. Many seem to have been so painted only for a short period of time on the East Coast. If you wish to represent a unit in the South Pacific that had the Ms-18 for at least awhile ... the Waller and Conway are good candidates. I think both are in DesRon 22. Both of these ships were armed with 4-40mm guns and off the top of my head, I don't remember how many 20mm's (looks like 7-20mm on the Conway). There are many photos of the Conway at this time period in Ms-18 ... checkout the usual sites ... Navsource.org, USNHC, DestroyerHistory.org (two good photos at ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... ay_02.html ...) and maybe Tincan.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Fletcher in Ms18?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 6709
Location: In the hills of North Jersey
I wonder if this picture shows the Fletcher painting out of Ms18 and into Ms21?
Image

Also, look at this one from the Fletcher website, dated Feb 1942. I know it's dangerous to try and guess what paint colors are in B/W photos, but it could be 5H on the turrets (left side of picture).
Image

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:10 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:31 pm
Posts: 3421
Location: Plattsburg, Missouri
What size anchor did the Fletcher class DD's use? I have drawings for a 4000'lbs anchor but I am thinking 2500 lbs is more like it.

_________________
Timothy Dike
Owner & Administrator
ModelWarships.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: time to jump in...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:22 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Santee, CA
Hi Guys,
First time on this thread!
Cut to the chase:
I am building the Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher as DD499; USS Renshaw. She is a round bridge Fletcher, and will be configured as she appeared on the 27th of October 1945..Navy Day.
This will be a kitbash with the Trumpeter sq bridge Fletcher. Well, actually I'll be using the midships deckhouse and a few other items from the Trumpeter kit; otherwise it's all Tamiya.
The thing is, I needed the midships deckhouse from the Trumpeter kit to simplify the Renshaw's late war AAA fit. The fwd torpedo tubes were replaced with a pair of quad 40's and a raised platform for the pair of Mk51 directors.
The 01 base below the bridge will have a pair of twin 40's and enlarged splinter shields/platforms common to later than Tamiya's config; another small kit modification.
This is the, "kamikaze AAA fit", or so I've had it explained.
Image
The Renshaw will be displayed with the Missouri in a multi-ship ocean type display portraying a scene from Navy day on the Hudson River, October 27, 1945. The Renshaw was President Truman's, "Taxi", as she made her way past quite a number of USN ships all with their names' painted on the ship's sides; anchored in a long line astern for this Post War celebration.
When I get a little further along, I'll post some progress pics of Tamiya's Fletcher>Renshaw showing the afore-mentioned changes.
I already have some questions for the Fletcher Fans, but I'll have to show as well as ask.
Thanks Guys, Tony Bunch

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:29 pm 
Tony, you will need to hunt down or scratch build some other parts. I would like to do the same as you, except my target model is of the sister ship Sigsbee. The Trumpeter (and Tamiya kit as well) do not have the six twim 20mm gun mounts that you will need. After-market resin and/or PE would likely be the best bet here anyway. Also, the Renshaw (as well as the Sigsbee that I wish to kit-bash into the 14-40mm version as well) retained the original "teardrop" shaped tub for the aft twin 40mm gun mtg. The Trumpeter kit only has the enlarged "Mare Island" "D" shaped tub for their kit and Tamiya only has the early high round tub intended for the quad 1.1" gun mtg. The Tamiya kit does have the teardrop shaped tub for the quarterdeck twin 40mm mtg ... but it is the wrong size and shape for the deckhouse tub between # 53 and 54 5" guns. L'Arsenal is coming out with an Upgrade Parts Kit to address all the short-comings of the Trumpeter kit and may well have all and then some of the parts that you (and I !!!) need.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: cool!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:22 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Santee, CA
Hi Guys,
Rick,
I appreciate your input! Some twin 40's are indeed needed! I have a bunch of L'Arsenal stuff too.
I sanded away all of the raised walkways...pain!
The deckhouse between mt 53 and 54 with the teardrop tub looks close to me, but the "void" beneath, (if I just add the two together), is most assuredly wrong. The Stilwell book on Missouri shows a great overhead shot of the Renshaw and this one picture really helps.
I'll post it later.
Off to lunch, Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: another view..
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:22 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Santee, CA
Hi Guys,
Here is Renshaw from overhead...with Missouri.
The teardrop tub is clearly evident from this view and the deckhouse beneath looks about the same shape as Tamiya's.
Interesting....this teardrop gun tub did have a use....
Image

onward.....Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"


Last edited by Tony Bunch on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:06 pm 
The "D" shape tub basically just followed the outside edge of the deckhouse it was on. The only place it didn't, was to the aft end where it overhung the deckhouse. The earliest that I have seen this tub being used was in the summer of 1943 (July 1943 on the USS Fletcher when she got her 5 twin 40mm upgrade) at Mare Island. There could be earlier examples. It was mostly done to Fletcher's passing through Mare Island and maybe other yards in the SF Bay area. Why this version was adapted is a mystery to me. The Teardrop shape created a dead space outside of the tub that was used often to store floater nets. The first ships so modified with the D shape tub were some of the earliest Fletcher's with the high round deckhouse intended for the 1.1" and it made sense to use what may have been an easier design. No as built Fletcher had it installed while building. Most of the ships with the D shape tub were round bridge units, until the 14-40mm mod came to be ... then all (?) Mare Island modified units --- round or square bridge --- were given the D shape tub.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: well..............
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:22 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Santee, CA
Hi Guys,
Rick,
I guess the Renshaw was not given her late war 14-40 at Mare island; as both pics shown above are of Renshaw after the war's end. The teardrop tub on Renshaw was there from 1942-on as I have a picture of her stern and clearly this small deck house and splinter shield for the twin 40 aft of mt53 has not changed, (at least from this view)....here you go.....
Image
What say you?
Oh by the way; I am not convinced that Renshaw had twin 20's in the above pics shown. Were the splinter shields on the twin 20's the same shape as for the singles? Wouldn't they be wider? Take a look at the single 20's on mighty Mo and compare them to the Renshaw; they look the same to me. Not to be argumentative; just want it accurate.
I know what you're talking about; though.
I have 1/96 drawings of DD661 after her 14-40 mod; August 1945.
D shaped tub on heraND TWIN 20's; that's for sure.
This is fun and educational! Two Fletcher's up....way up!
Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:21 am 
In John Reilly's book ... USN Destroyers of WWII ... he said that some of the 50 Fletcher's that received the 14-40mm mod by November 1945 (some completed after that) retained the single 20mm guns. How many and which ones are NOT spelled out. I have never been able to pick these out from pictures. All of the yard photos of ships getting this mod (most are Mare Island and West Coast Yards) have the twin 20mm. He also said that 32 of the 50 still had Mk-51 gun directors instead of the Mk-63. His footnoted sources are USN BuOrd Armament Summary Reorts ... 25 Nov 1945 and 25 July 1949. The Renshaw was damaged by a Sub Torpedo in Feb 1945 and eventually was repaired and modified at Todd Pac Yard in Tacoma WA (DANFS). She completed that repair in October 1945, not seeing any further WWII service. So, she may be one of the units to care only single 20mm guns ... but my eyesight isn't good enough to pick that kind of detail out from the photo you posted. :-)


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:22 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Santee, CA
hi Guys,
Rick,
Awesome! :jump_1:
Thanks for the facts!
I'll get my opti-visor and stare at the 20's on Renshaw till I arrive at some sort of conclusion.
Your unwavering assistance in this matter is wholeheartedly appreciated.
:thumbs_up_1:
More to come, Tony

_________________
"You guys make this hobby fun!"
"Some of my dearest friends I have made right here on Modelwarships"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:52 am 
I took time last night looking at first on-line and then pictures I have and/or in books for somewhere in one of the many yard photos a shot of a twin 20mm on a ship and a single 20mm on a neighbor ship to compare the differences. I couldn't find one ... yet. But, in all the CLOSE-UP YARD photos of 14-40mm Fletcher's I reviewed where I could clearly see the 20mm guns, all were equiped with the twin 20mm mtg. Doesn't mean much since the Mare Island photos are the ones most available. Many of the other photos I have collected are surface shots at enough distance that telling a twin from a single is not easy. I did find a photo of the Tingey on navsource.org that I thought was interesting. The photo shows the two port side waist twin 20mm mtgs with one of them only having a single gun installed. Looking close, I could tell it was a twin mtg that had one of the two guns removed or yet installed. The picture is at ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0553905.jpg ... you can not open direct from this link ... so you will need to copy and paste into your browser to get there. Also, from what I could see, there is little difference between the shields on the single and twin 20mm, the base is different in detail, but the shields look like the left and right flat sections are the same size(?), just a bigger gap between them to make room for the twin guns.

Also, to make it clear ... not every Fletcher that passed though Mare Island got the D shaped tub ... as I said before I do not know the reason for this change to ships that already had the "standard" teardrop tub.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1843 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 93  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group