The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:59 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1843 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 ... 93  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 10886
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
I certainly wouldn't put it past him - after all, Ron Smith did post that he had some conclusive proof of dual rudders on the first page, so that has to apply to something, right?

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
My problem with PORTER having twin rudders are these photos ...

http://www.destroyersonline.com/images/dd800030.jpg ...

http://www.destroyersonline.com/images/dd800031.jpg ...

No dates are provided, but they appear to be late WWII or during recommissioning for the KW. So unless the hull numbers have been doctored and the other pieces of evidence bogus, I don't see how it is possible. I haven't concluded that NO FLETCHERS got twin rudders ... the problem is which ones. I know that at least one FLETCHER was used as a prototype for the Mod of the Mk 37 director used on SUMNERS and GEARINGS. So, it certainly isn't out of the question. The problem would be that to serve as a prototype, a FLETCHER would have had to be built pretty early with this twin rudder configuration.

If your Grandfather served on other destroyers, SUMNERS or GEARINGS, in his career, he could be mixing ships. I suggest printing the above images to see if they jog his memory. By the way, there are many good photos at this website ... http://www.destroyersonline.com/usndd/d ... 800pho.htm?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 463
Rick, I just seen your original post on page 6 I think with the aft under photo of the Porter in dry dock. I would have to agree with no doubt that my Grandpa got confused about the twin rudders to twin props. As the picture clearly shows the Porter or 800 with a single rudder. As this was his only ship he ever served on, I truly believe he just didn't hear correctly when I asked him the question. Because after for being 88 he still has a his faculties and is doing quite well. I hope this holds true for some years to come.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
ussvf17,

I passed over your post earlier, sorry.

When you say you are interested in images of the rear bulkhead of the bridge of round bridge FLETCHER, which area are you interested in? There is the aft side of the pilothouse/navigation bridge and there is the deckhouse below that. I'll tell you that this area is a difficult one to find good photos of with stacks, flag boxes, etc in the way. Plus, it would help to know which ship you plan to model and during what period of time. Here are a couple of sample images of FLETCHER herself and a couple of her sisters to illustrate how hard it will be to see the bulkhead itself.

FLETCHER as completed on 26 June 1942 before some mods were done in this area.
Image

FLETCHER after being updated to five twin 40-mm mounts on 13 August 1943.
Image

La VALLETTE after being updated to five twin 40-mm mounts on 19 July 1943.
Image

JENKINS after being updated to five twin 40-mm mounts on 13 January 1944.
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 7:50 pm
Posts: 26
Thanks for replying, Rick. I am interested the inside rear bulkhead of the Nav Bridge/pilot house. The reason I am interested in it is I am building the 1944 O'Bannon with interior details. I have the builder plan so I know the general layout but I don't have much detail I would like with the read bulkhead.

I also have the book "Action Tonight" where it has a couple of the interior pictures of O'Bannon Nav bridge/pilot house. From what I can tell from the pictures, there were equipments on the rear bulkhead on the O'Bannon that weren't on the restored USS Kidd. Any help you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Do you have the Action Tonight book? Do you want me to scan them in for you?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
ussvf17 (what is your name?),

I don't have the Action Tonight book, so scans may help.

I don't know a great deal about the interior of the bridges of Round-bridge Fletchers ... I have never been on any of them, since none have been made into museum ships unfortunately. Destroyer History's website, linked to the NICHOLAS Organization website, has a large number of images of onboard views of the NICHOLAS and some of her sister O'BANNON ... http://www.ussnicholas.org/images.html ... there may be some views there.

I have attached a view of the Navigation Bridge showing the Pilothouse layout for DD449-451, I got from the BIW Engineering Drawings DVD (available from destroyerhistory.org ... store ), hopefully this helps us communicate. The layout of the bridges changed throughout the war, but I think the basic pilothouse layout stayed the same at least when looking at the drawings for the remaining Round-bridge FLETCHERS built at BIW. There was a hatch on the centerline that went into the Chart House, but what is mounted, if anything, on the bulkhead between the pilot house and the chart house isn't spelled out and there wasn't a section cut with that view in the drawings. You guys building the 1/144 scale kit are challenging the knowledge base. :smallsmile:

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:37 pm
Posts: 1111
Location: Smith's Falls, Canada
I've been squinting over the writing in that plan view, and I find some of it interesting.

First to note, there's a girder that runs all the way along the centerline along the roof - it's noted as "girder above" and is a line with small crossbars on it.

The access hatch between the pilot house and the chart room is off-center to starboard of that girder - if you line up one edge with the girder, you're dead on. Hinges would be on the Chart Room side, as the hatch opens aft - all the hatches do, their swing is noted for clarity. Hinges are on the starboard side.

Also to note, there is one Open viewing hatch between the chart room and the pilot house, a circular viewing port over the chart table. This would indicate that the cabinet that stands out from the bulkhead would be of no more than possibly waist height - it's also ostensibly used for passing charts through, as there's a chart board on the forward bulkhead, a folding one, for charts in use.

Equally of interest, the Centerline window, second from centerline, and last window on the bridge are fitted with electric window wipers, both sides.

I can't decipher what the notations are on the two, I would surmise, cabinets that are set against the bulkhead to the chart room - Gear something is my guess, and it could well be an abbreviation.

That's all the insight that I can bring right now, from reading that plan - my eyes are going a little buggy for it. HTH

_________________
Die Panzerschiffe - Putting the Heavy in Heavy Cruiser since 1940.

It's not Overkill, it's Insurance.

If you think my plastic is crazy, check out my Line Art!
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/S ... %20Images/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:01 pm
Posts: 819
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Rick,

I have a picture of USS Fletcher with the floater net baskets in front of the seachlight platform. Also have them in the back of the platform. I take it they were installed upon building in front. Do you or anyone else know when they were moved?

_________________
Any ship larger than a Destroyer is a waste of metal.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:36 pm
Posts: 127
Rick,

I certainly do thank you for posting those blow-ups of photos. They are a big help for detail.

Regards
Steve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
I rotated and expanded the image focusing on the rear bulkhead. The "rectangular" boxes are actually hand "grab" rails. Also, note there is a step down from the pilot house into the chart room.

In the BIW Engineering drawings, there are two more Bridge layouts for other later ROUND BRIDGE FLETCHERS. The chartroom layout was revised each time and I suspect kept changing as more equipment kept being added to the ships. But, I didn't notice changes to the pilot house layout.

Image


Les,

The first Federal-built FLETCHER class units (DD445-448) built had the searchlight platform on the aft stack and the floater net "baskets" built with wood slats were installed by the Navy Yard on both the front and aft edges of the searchlight platform(s) ... I posted some images on this earlier that showed the early basket. One of the things the USN did was play with where best to put floater net baskets. I read an interesting memo about the early practice of tying floater nets at the deck edge for easy access by crews in the South Pacific. But, officials wanted them up out of the way, fearing fouling crew movements. On units delivered after DD-448 well into 1943, the floater net baskets were deleted from the searchlight platforms as completed. Even when the searchlight platform was moved to the forward stack initially no floater net baskets were installed on the searchlight platform. On the West Coast as the destroyers were overhauled/upgraded in mid-late 1943, either the metal round contoured basket (see FLETCHER's 1943 image above) or the metal straight basket were installed on the searchlight and 40-mm director platforms. When completed and at least into March 1943, FLETCHER had the wood slat floater net baskets on both the front and aft edges of the searchlight platform. On at least RADFORD in early 1943, the baskets forward of the searchlight platform were removed. On the other hand, the early BIW-built units (DD449-451) did NOT have ANY floater baskets on the searchlight platform from completion until being upgraded with five twin 40-mm mounts.

I have not tried to figure out when baskets were moved or added, because it happened often. Best to try and find photos of the ship you want to model for the time period and use that configuration or take a guess based on sisters at that time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 7:50 pm
Posts: 26
Thanks for all the help guys

Below are some of the pilot house photos I can find:

1) A picture I found on http://www.ussnicholas.org. It shows the port side of the pilot house of USS Nicholas

Attachment:
img085.jpg
img085.jpg [ 34.18 KiB | Viewed 5505 times ]


Now compare to the scan from the book "Action Tonight" which shows port side of the pilot house of USS O' Bannon. I don't see how large radio? can fit into the space based on the USS Nicholas photo

Attachment:
img083_edited.jpg
img083_edited.jpg [ 113.27 KiB | Viewed 5505 times ]


Finally, this is the photo of the pilot house of USS Kidd I took.

Attachment:
img084.jpg
img084.jpg [ 88.94 KiB | Viewed 5505 times ]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
That would be more like what I would expect to see on a WWII ship. Cables, communication gear, misc stuff stuck/routed every-where an unoccupied space existed.

The KIDD of course is a Square-bridge unit and was operational post-WWII and would be configured differently.

Looks like you are as close as you may get to an answer as to what needs to go on the bulkhead.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:57 am
Posts: 231
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia
Rick E Davis wrote:
There was a hatch on the centerline that went into the Chart House...

A minor point, perhaps, but please note that in USN parlance, large, hinged vertical closures for personnel access are properly known as "doors", not "hatches" (e.g. WaterTight Door (WTD); AirTight Door (ATD), joiner door (NTD), etc.). Hatches are horizontal access closures that lead to a different deck or level.

Great pictures, by the way - thanks for those!

_________________
Andrew P, PBFHS
Chesapeake, Virginia
www.PBFHS.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3307
Sorry, you are right about doors vs hatches and I knew it ... just went brain dead.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:01 pm
Posts: 819
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Thanks for the info Rick. :thumbs_up_1:

_________________
Any ship larger than a Destroyer is a waste of metal.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 463
I was doing some research for the original paint on the porter. I found a good picture of the port side which I can use greatly, but on the porter's web page I found the starboard side pic and something didn't look right.If you look at the top pic ,and then compare to the bottom ,to me they seem to be the same ship. The bottom pic is hull#794 not the Porter. If anyone can help me with a starboard pic of the porter I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks for any and all help.


Attachments:
dd800001.jpg
dd800001.jpg [ 14.99 KiB | Viewed 4810 times ]
DD794x2-24Feb44.jpg
DD794x2-24Feb44.jpg [ 95.2 KiB | Viewed 4810 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 10886
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
If you are basing your suspicion on the paint scheme, both Porter and DD-794 (USS Irwin) had the same scheme - MS 32/13D, according to shipcamouflage.com. Here's the design sheet for that scheme: http://www.shipcamouflage.com/DesignShe ... DD-445.jpg

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 463
Timmy that is a lot of help as far as the colors go. I appreciate it. As far as the paint goes ,I think they both are the same measure but have different schemes of that measure. The top pic below is the Porter, the bottom the Irwin.


Attachments:
800porter_01.jpg
800porter_01.jpg [ 72.57 KiB | Viewed 4802 times ]
794irwin_01.jpg
794irwin_01.jpg [ 67.38 KiB | Viewed 4802 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 10886
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
That looks like design 6D: http://www.shipcamouflage.com/DesignShe ... DD-445.jpg
It's entirely possible that a ship carried more than one pattern throughout her life (might even use port and starboard patterns from different designs, like USS Franklin CV-13), though the Shipcamouflage database does not indicate anything other than 13D - the database is always being worked on though, so it's not necessarily a final word on it.

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 pm
Posts: 463
That's it that's it !!!!!!! God love you man. That is the best thing i've seen all day. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Thank you thank you thank you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1843 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 ... 93  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group