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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:37 pm 
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Hi Guys,

The Ms22 paint scheme was what I ASSUMED to be the correct paint scheme.........as the previous photos I've posted of Renshaw, (I posted on pp4..this thread), would indicate. The main indicator was the darker band around the hull from the boot topping up to the lowest sheer line. This darker band would of course be 5-N Navy Blue, and everything above it, (vertical surfaces)...5-H Haze Grey. But wait.....That would mean that her vertical upperworks would be 5-H too...right?????

See pic....
Image

So, what color is the vertical surface that President Truman is standing behind? This would be 5-H if Ms22.......I thought. Plus, just look at Missouri's upperworks......now that's 5-H. They are different!
This is about the time I made, "first contact", with Randy Short. I called him by phone..missed him, but left a msg. He called me back and left a msg...that went on for a few msg's. Finally we got to talk, and I asked him why the Snyder & Short Ship database showed Renshaw with Ms21 the last half of 45??? Getting confused yet? I was! So, I e-mailed these two pics of Renshaw and Missouri, (to be my dio-display), and his reply was...Ms12/45...NEUTRAL COLORS. I said what is Ms12/45? Never heard of that! Neutral colors??? What's that? In a long converstaion a couple nights ago, Randy talked me through the paint mixes for Ms12/45. He also explained to me the, "Late War", changeover to Neutral colors from blue hues. He knows a :censored_2: of a lot more than I do. Plus Renshaw's 14-40 mod was done in mid 45 and she never saw "late war", action. Mare Island was using neutrals by this time in 45, and I know no different. I believe my facts are straight.

Here is another picture of Renshaw taken the same day, (October 27/45), but doesn't show much. .....
Image

This and a few other pics is all that I have to work with to, "get the paint scheme right".
Both DD499 pics on this thread were taken from Navsource.org DD499 Renshaw's page.

If you look at the DD499 pic on page 4, (this thread), you can see the lowest point of sheer was not that closely observed, as I'm pretty sure it would be a little higher.....just another detail to adhere to when painting the hull. That's the fun part! Also, the gun mounts look lighter than the surrounding unshadowed, (by the sun), areas....another...hmmmmm. Maybe still 5-H Haze Grey???

So, here is a visual description of Ms12/45, (albeit an aircraft carrier), showing the vertical surfaces on the upperworks would then be...Ocean Grey 5-0 #17 (Neutral). According to Randy, my best bet will be, (using Testors Acryl), to take and use FS36270 Neutral Grey straight out of the bottle for the Ocean Grey 5-O neutral. This color matched perfectly in a previous, "test". Good enough for me.
The hull darker band will be Navy Grey 5-N #7 (neutral). This will be a mix of 1 part FS36270, 1 part black and 1 part white.

Image
Picture taken from Snyder and Short Ship Camouflage website.

The tub for the fantail twin 20's is also being taken from the Trumpeter kit and is the correct shape..almost. I have to re-shape the aft end of the tub, (square off the corners), to duplicate the o-head pic of Renshaw; it seems there were a couple more ammo boxes.
Also, the twin 20 teardrop tub for between Mt53 and 54 is incorrect in shape..just as Rick said, but I will try to use the middle of it and "shorten", the ends. Additionally, the house beneath will be slightly, "widened".
Part of the fun....
Tony

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:42 pm 
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Rick E Davis wrote:
Tony,
Looking good. One nit ... I assume it was a typo and you meant MS-22 (not MS-12) rev 1945. From what the camo experts say when this was introduced to the fleet ... most (if not all) of the Fletcher's that were given the 14-40mm mod were painted with either MS-21 rev 1945 or MS-22 rev 1945.


Not a typo, but I'm not 100% sure either. Some of this is based off a document I found concerning the 1945 shift in camouflage paint and measures. In it, the only difference between Measure 12 and 22 is that Ms12 uses 5-O above the lowest point of the main deck whereas Ms22 uses 5-H. While this same document orders that even numbered DesRons (Renshaw was in DesRon 22 at the time of her damage but I have no idea if she went back following the end of the war or if she joined another DesRon), it's possible that she was painted outside the guidelines of this document as some time had passed and this photo as well as this one look a bit dark to be 5-H Haze Gray.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:08 pm 
OK ... now I'm really confused. Ms-12/45 and Ms-22/45 looked the same except for the difference in paints used above the "line" ... I'll never will be able to figure out which ship is painted which from b&w photos. I missed this discuss somewhere along the way. Thanks guys, I'm better "educated" ... confused as to WHY they did this ... but better informed. I guess now that I think about it ... some of the late-war/early post-war photos do seem to have a greater contrast than others ... maybe this is the reason???


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:31 pm 
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The 1945 paint discussion really hasn't happened yet; I'm still trying to piece together the details... and it's larger than any one type or class of ship so I doubt it'll take place fully in any CASF thread... although discussions like this will definately happen within the topic of specific ships.

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 Post subject: on another front...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:21 pm 
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hi Guys,
While I'm on a roll....
Here are some of the pirated Trumpeter bits and some of the basic changed or modified components. The forward funnel will have the searchlights and not the aft funnel.
The fantail twin 20 tub has been modified to duplicate the Renshaw's o-head pic.
The 01 twin 40 tubs have some external detail added to more closely duplicate pictures of Renshaw also.
Image
The twin 20 tub and its deckhouse will be done all over, but here is what I almost chose to use. What do you think, Rick?
Image
I may paint the hull band tonight. The cold outside air temps in the garage don't seem to be a bother. Humidity is fairly low, I should mention.
More to come DD Fans!
I hope you guys don't mind my, "over-posting of pics", on this thread; instead of the "Picture Post" thread. It just made more sense to me to post here.
Anyone's input is appreciated.
Tony

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:37 pm 
I have one quick question about the Fletcher. According to the ship camouflage website, in 1945 the Fletcher wore ms21, and later ms22. I cannot find any pictures of the Fletcher in ms22, although I have seen pictures of a few other ships in the Fletcher class wearing that paint scheme. This has made me wonder whether the Fletcher actually wore it, or if it was planned to be painted into ms22 but never was. I don't want to paint it in ms21 because to me all that blue looks a little plain. I'm just asking for confirmation of whether or not the Fletcher really did wear ms22 at some point in 1945.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:47 pm 
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I don't have any photographic or textual proof for Ms 22, but according to this page Fletcher was in DesRon 21 for most of the war, and this document schedules odd-numbered DesRons to paint into Ms 21.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:53 pm 
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As I mentioned, I started working on the Trumpeter Sullivans , which I'm going to build as the USS Gatling (DD-671), for my Uncle, who served on her after her 1945 refit at Mare Island. This picture from Navsource show the Gatling in drydock at Mare Island, towards the end of her yard period.

Since she underwent a refit in mid-1945, should I paint her in 5H/5N, or should I paint her in the Neutral Grays? If the NG, which colors would I use? I want to order the WEM paints if I need them...the model has been puttied, sanded, primed and is ready for paint.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:10 pm 
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Good case of "I dunno"

She was in DesRon 50, which was scheduled for Measure 22. The main west coast paint supplier was at Mare Island, so theoretically neutral grays would have been available in March 1945 at the latest, but for Measure 22 they say to use Navy Blue (redesignated 5-NB) if the stocks exist. I just don't have any information yet as to how long the shipyard would have had those paints around, so it's a "gray" area, if I can make a bad joke. It's one of the things I'm trying to determine at Seattle NARA. I figure if I can figure out how to do that here it'll be easier to do when I get a chance to go down to the San Bruno archives (with a zillion things on my plate).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:11 pm 
I'm going to go out on a limb ... although I think it is pretty solid in this case. I have not found a clear cut photo of the Fletcher in her final wartime configuration with the 14-40mm mod. But she received the mod at the same time as her sisters in DESDIV 42 (Fletcher, Radford, Jenkins and LaVallette) and there are pictures of some of them in this mod. The Radford in this photo ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0544606.jpg ... is in MS-21. The LaVallette has a whole website on her 1945 mod on the destroyerhistory.org web site in MS-21 ... http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletche ... vyday.html . The Fletcher Reunion website has a group overhead photo reportedly of three of the DESDIV 42 sisters (Fletcher, Jenkins, and Radford taken from the mast of the Jenkins) ... http://www.ussfletcher.org/447mast.jpg ... but I can not be certain on the camo of these when this undated photo was taken. I would say that it is "likely" that the Fletcher was painted in MS-21 at the end of her mod.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:17 am 
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Recently I bought the Tamiya 1/350 Fletcher, then went back and got the Trumpeter 1/350 Sullivans... I couldn't resist :cool_1: . I'm confused about the Sullivans' 1945 refit. The kit gives you the option of either the '43 or '45 version and the only difference I see on the kit is the loss of 1 torpedo launcher, otherwise it isn't "better armed" than the earlier version is it?

Is there anything missing on the Trumpeter kit? I thought the DDE version of the Fletcher had more AA weaponry than the original... or maybe I'm overlooking something.

TIA,
Jeff


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:36 am 
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It's the quad 40mm mounts replacing the twin 40s that really make the difference. The TT was removed so that a larger gun tub and the associated directors for the guns could be mounted.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:49 am 
Jeff,

Besides replacing two twin 40mm with two quad 40mm, the seven single 20mm guns were replaced by six twin 20mm guns ... which the Trumpeter kit DOES NOT provide and you will need to find elsewhere. The two twin 40mm mtgs were directly on either side of the second stack and the quad 40mm mtgs could not fit there, so the forward TT was removed and the quad 40mm's moved forward some and a structure for their fire control installed in their place. Martin's Jan 3 post of a picture showing a 5 twin 40mm Fletcher and the 14-40mm mod Fletcher differences is up a few posts above. The plan was to besides adding more 40mm guns to add the improved Mk-63 fire control that would have made them much more accurate shooters. But only about 1/3 of the 50+ Fletcher's to get the mod also got the Mk-63, likely because of supply problems.

As for the DDE upgrade ... that was an ASW upgrade applied to 18 early Round Bridge Fletcher's in 1949-51(52?) and involved keeping only two of the 5" guns (mtg 51 and 55), replacing the 40mm with two twin 3"/50 cal guns and adding then "state-of-the-art" ASW weapons/sensors. Either the Trumpeter or Tamiya 1/350 kits have any of the parts to build this out of the box.


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 Post subject: more, more and more...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:29 pm 
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Hi Guys,
The Trumpeter fantail twin 20 tub has been modified and put in its final place on the Tamiya Fletcher's fantail. L'Arsenal is working on a 1/350 twin 20mm set, and I'm hoping to get a few, "samples", soon.
Image
Image

If my deadline for completion comes first, I'll use the L'Arsenal single 20's to make the twin 20's or some mix and match thereof.

I want to take a moment to thank the Fletcher Fans for presenting new, (to me), and very useful information regarding the Renshaw and her late 45 config.

The twin 40 tubs are now permanently installed on the 01 level at the base of the bridge. The layout of the splinter shields is backwards when compared to the scale drawings of DD661 in her final WWII fit, (sq bridge etc..), but I used the overhead view of Renshaw as a guide. They are correct.
Image
Image
I had to do a litle deck grey touchup this morning, (always have plenty of airbrush pre-mixed available till the project is finished), and after dry I'll clear-coat the deck areas preparatory to applying the, "anti-skid deckmat", decals. This will take a while.
I will wait till the deck grey is thoroughly dry, as the clear coat will eat into the deck grey otherwise.
The clear coat will be Tamiya, "Clear", mixed with Gunze-Sangyo leveling thinner. The deck grey, (as I've previously mentioned), was Testors Acryl paint. The results for painting on the clear coat over an un-dry Acryl are less than desireable.
Tony

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:13 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Thanks - I think I'll just go with the 5H/5N, since I have that in stock.


I'd have to say that I'd lean towards the neutrals myself, but I don't have any proof either way.


If I did go with the NG...which would you suggest? There are the choices WEM has:

#17 Neutral Ocean Gray
#46 Neutral Outside Gray
#37 Neutral 5-L Light Gray (1945)
#11 Neutral Outside Gray (1945)
#7 Neutral 5-N Navy Gray
#4 Neutral Deck Gray 20

I'd guess Deck gray for the vertical surfaces, 5N Navy gray for the hull, but what about the upper works - #17 Ocean Gray?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:30 pm 
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MartinJQuinn wrote:
#7 Neutral 5-N Navy Gray
#4 Neutral Deck Gray 20


Those two for sure, but I'll have to check with John to see what the equivilent for 1945 5-H is

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 Post subject: Neutral 5-H
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:30 pm 
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The neutral 5-H is #27 Haze Gray, Colourcoats US 28.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:01 pm 
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Hi Guys,
Martin,
Good luck making up your mind!

Okay okay....Less than two months ago...I'd have painted my DD499 in the pre-45 Ms22 and known no different, but because of the little bird that said, "there's something wrong with this picture", something drove me to look further. The photo of DD499 with the Missouri made me wonder as the Renshaw's upperworks were much darker than the Mighty Mo's 5-H upperworks. Unable to post picture sorry...Anyway, this is why I am not going to paint Renshaw in Ms22/45 or Ms22.
The late war DesRons were divided into evens and odds. The Evens were painted Ms21/45 and the odds..Tracy help me out here, ( I can't recall everything you said), were to be painted Ms22/45. DD499 should have been Ms21/45, but clearly had a hull band....making it either Ms22/45 or Ms12/45; simply.
Because of the most apparently darker upperworks on Renshaw compared to Missouri, she could not have been painted in Ms22/45..which left Ms12/45. Talk about confusion! Without the color pic to see the obvious shade differences, I'd have painted Renshaw in the Ms22/45..after learning all of this.

Verbatim from Snyder and Short's Shipcamouflage.com....

Ms22/45 is:
Apply a horizontal band of Navy Blue (5-NB) or #7 Navy Gray (5-N), if blue not available, to the hull for its entire length and extending from the boottopping to the height of the main deck at its lowest point (on carriers to the level of the hangar deck). Apply Haze Gray (5-H) to all vertical surfaces above that level. In absence of boottopping, extend lower band from light load line.

Apply Deck Gray (20) to decks and other horizontal surfaces exposed to weather.

It should be noted that #7 Navy Gray has been substituted for Navy Blue retaining the same designation (5-N), and Deck Gray (20) has been substituted for Deck Blue (20-B). Countershading is no longer authorized

Ms21/45 is:
Apply #7 Navy Gray (5-N) to all vertical surfaces without exception.

Apply Deck Gray (20) to all deck and other horizontal surfaces.
It should be noted that #7 Navy Gray has been substituted for Navy Blue retaining the same designation (5-N), and Deck Gray (20) has been substituted for Deck Blue (20-B). Countershading is no longer authorized.

Ms12/45 is:
Apply a horizontal band of #7 Navy Gray (5-N) for the entire length of the hull from the boottopping to the height of the main deck at its lowest point (on carriers to the height of the hangar deck). Above this level apply #17 Ocean Gray (5-O) to vertical surfaces including superstructure, stacks, and masts. In the absence of boottopping, extend lower band from light load line.

Apply Deck Gray (20) to decks and all other horizontal surfaces exposed to the weather.

It should be noted that #7 Navy Gray has been substituted for Navy Blue retaining the same designation (5-N), and Deck Gray (20) has been substituted for Deck Blue (20-B) in measure 12 and 21. Countershading is no longer authorized.

faithfully submitted, TB

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 Post subject: some progress..
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:11 am 
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Hi Guys,
I have finished decals on the foredeck...much to do still.
Image
Image
Image

I'm hoping after dull-coating and weathering the main deck, the anti-skid deck mat decals won't look so, "off".
Happy with the L'Arsenal decals to be sure.
Tony

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:55 pm 
Since I have figured out how to post pictures today and I have been playing with my new scanner... I'm posting a copy of a picture I bought 25 years ago from Floating Drydock's collection of pictures they copied from NHC in the 1970's. The Halford went to Mare Island NY after a collision in early 1945 and while being repaired, she was upgraded as well. What is interesting in this 15 May 45 photo is that she has been equiped with Mk-63 directors and has the associated Mk-34 (or Mk-35 Alan Raven's book on Fletcher's uses both terms in describing them) radar mounted on her waist twin 40mm guns (only). She has also been equiped with six twin 20mm guns. Navsource.org has pictures of her taken in the same sequence, but not this one. The other three twin 40mm guns don't have Mk-34 radars. The mod to the Halford was done one month after the Anti-Kamikaze program ordered that the Fletcher's AA standard be 14-40mm (2x4, 3x2) and 6 twin 20mm guns with improved FCS (Mk-63). The first Fletcher's modified to 14-40mm guns started to come out of the yards in late June. I can not recall ever seeing any other Fletcher's having this configuration. Interestingly, only about one out of three of the 50 or so Fletcher's modified to the 14-40mm standard had the Mk-63/Mk-34(35) FCS installed instead of the Mk-51.



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