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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Thanks once again as always Dan! Your help and knowledge is always appreciated!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Looking at all those TROMs and CASF treads here...ugh, just why is the history of Japanese warships' modernisations so complicated and full of mysteries :crazy:

I am keen on building mid/late war Shigure and Samidare. So... did Shigure carry a radar during the Battle of Vella Lavella? When I look at this famous photo from Hara's book showing both Shigure and Samidare shooting it seems to me that both ships have the same early tripod (like on Samidare's photo posted by Dan) but I'm not sure. Also, was Shigure's single mount gun removed at the end of 1943? I guess it would mean that the only difference between those two during their last year of service was the radar on Shigure...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:57 pm 
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I dont believe she had the type 13 then. I believe she obtained the type 13 right before Leyte gulf. Both lost there single mounts about mid-44


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:14 pm 
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Blacman You'll have to let me know when you start your build, i just bought mine and shall be starting it asap!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Thank you for your quick reply :thumbs_up_1:

However... I'm not Blacman :big_grin: sorry for misleading you with my avatar.

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kindly requested are plastic HMS Lion in any scale, and Kinugasa in 1:350.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:56 pm 
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Bhaaaaa!!!!! Sorry Fivi-1241!! Well anyways still would like to see the Shigure built none the less! Lol


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:33 am 
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Ahoy, mates. Two questions and a comment on my Harusame//Tamiya 1/700 build. The first question is on funnel bands; the second on the gun director(?).

How many funnel bands did Harusame carry? And on which funnel? This would be for action during First Battle of Guadalcanal, 13Nov42. Box art shows three (3) on the forward funnel. Paint chart on box back depicts one (1) on the forward funnel; none on the aft. Instruction sheet makes no visual indication. Regrettably, I cannot read Japanese. It is probably in the instructions somewhere.

Can one of you modelers direct me to a single source reference for IJN WWII funnel banding? What is its purpose and how was it determined?

Question two is sort of a curiosity question. Is it the gun director that is positioned directly aft of the searchlight on the searchlight platform? Or is it possibly a searchlight director? Reason for asking is I want to show the searchlight directed to starboard, and want to orient the director the same way if need be. Rather moot on this model build, as the part itself is ball shaped and not loop shaped. But be good to know for future builds using PE. Box art shows it as a large loop, similar in my Army experience to a RDF loop. Bear with my please. I'm new at all this.

Comment is on the "splinter shield" surrounding the searchlight. redoctober27 and Dan K talked to this on - I believe - the Kagero thread - and caught my attention that it is a canvas shield. Closer look at my Harusame box art depicts it as such. I would have missed that. Thanks. This build is far from a super-detail build, but I find myself becoming a sort of searchlight freak and have decided to pay a little extra attention to that platform.

Regret the long post. Hope it wasn't too boring a read. :big_grin: Cheers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Unfortunately, there is no comprehensive source on IJN DD funnel banding. Generally, funnel bands denoted division and squadron or fleet assignments. Banding changed continually, as some ships were lost and others rotated in and out of old/new DD divisions. Records are incomplete. We have to go with TROMS (tabulated records of movement) and the few available photos.

Harusame was assigned to DesDiv2, DesRon 2 at the outset of the war, along with Marusame, Yudachi, and Samidare. DesDiv 2 was intact and unchanged through late 1942. Assuming nothing changed assignment-wise after the loss of Yudachi, then a photo taken by USS Wahoo after Harusame's torpedoing in January, 1943 (lucky for you) shows her with two bands on #1 funnel and 1 thick band on #2 funnel. Below.

I believe you are referencing the RDF (radio direction finder) loop immediately aft the searchlight. There is a director on the open, aft compass bridge deck under the formast tripod but, I can never remember if this is a searchlight or a torpedo aiming director.


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Harusame torpedoed by USS Wahoo.jpg
Harusame torpedoed by USS Wahoo.jpg [ 82.84 KiB | Viewed 2055 times ]
Marusame & Samidare, Gakken #19.jpg
Marusame & Samidare, Gakken #19.jpg [ 121.34 KiB | Viewed 2055 times ]
Yudachi bridge crop.jpg
Yudachi bridge crop.jpg [ 83.77 KiB | Viewed 2055 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Spot on with the info and images, Dan K. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:16 am 
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Quoting Dan K, above: "Harusame was assigned to DesDiv2, DesRon 2 at the outset of the war, along with Marusame, Yudachi, and Samidare. DesDiv 2 was intact and unchanged through late 1942."

Another question. During my research on DD's, I am finding the terms DesDiv and DesRon (Destroyer Division and Destroyer Squadron) used as interchangeable terms? Are they interchangeable, or are they unique organizational terms? Or is the designation DesDiv and DesRon driven by either number or type and/or mission of a destroyer flotilla? Within IJN, it appears they have unique meaning. Perhaps not so much so in other navies?

I did Wiki-search this, but still came away with question. On a similar note, again Wiki-searching, on tactical movements, came away with vanguard, or lead element, for "van", another term my destroyer research comes across often. So there is hope for me putting all these new terms in their proper box . . . with this forum's help.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:02 pm 
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In the IJN, two or more Desdivs consisting each of usually three or more destroyers are attached to one Desron.

As an example FUBUKI at the beginning of the war was assigned to Desdiv 11 also consisting of HATSUYUKI and SHIRAYUKI, Desron 3, First Fleet.

Gilbert


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:31 pm 
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At last! Getting serious about sticking parts on the Harusame hull, and am bumping up against something curious. It appears this old Tamiya kit carries the weapons configuration of after the time period 21-30 May, 1943? Comparing the TROM to the kit parts, and noticing the kit parts did not match armament specs of two of my references. At that time according to the TROM, ". . .'X' turret removed/replaced by triple 25mm mount during these repairs; Type 22 radar also mounted on the foremast."

This pretty much matches the parts on the tree and the build illustration. And all this time I've been wondering where that "other" 5" gun went to [that wasn't on the tree]. :big_grin: But then that raises another curious thing. The triple gun sets in the kit are all item #26's. Which according to the specs, were 13mm. So the aft triple is molded as a 13mm, but is actually supposed to be a 25mm? Me thinks so. Probably just a convenient and economical way to market the kit? Then again, at 1/700 scale, perhaps the difference is not noticeable as long as the configuration of the triple is the same?

So, shucks, DanK (and interested others), in the 'as sunk' configuration- (which I really wanted anyway-vice the Battle of Guadalcanal config), the funnel markings again come into question. Thinking perhaps I'll go with the three bands on the forward funnel, none on the rear as depicted in the box art. After coming out of repair, again according to the TROM, Harusame went to DesDiv 27, DesRon 2, Second Fleet.

That TROM is a neat thing. Also am preparing an acetate overlay on an old atlas page of the South Pacific, and am tracing the operational track of the Harusame. Right now, I'm as far as The Battle of Java Sea with the overlay. That's what bumped me up against all of the above, otherwise it would have been missed.

Cheers,
Arnie H
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Arnie, you may not have picked up on this from earlier in this class thread but, Harusame received a Yugumo style bridge when rebuilt (and, as sunk). She became a hybrid of sorts.


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Harusame, after refit, 11-1943 at Uraga, alt.jpg
Harusame, after refit, 11-1943 at Uraga, alt.jpg [ 130.77 KiB | Viewed 1871 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:59 am 
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Thank you, Dan K, for re-directing my attention to previous thread content, and for posting the round-bridge image. Went back and re-read the thread. All my questions were already addressed. I just didn't know what I needed to know. :heh:

Poor little Harusame. Her fate is beginning to look more like a mercy killing than a sinking. Still. Happy it's my first build.

Cheers all,
Arnie H
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:04 pm 
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A discussion on j-ships about some new photos of a Shiratsuyu class DD reminds me to amend some my comments made in reviewing the PitRoad vs. Fujimi 1/700 Shiratsuyu class kits.

There, I wrote:

"There is an issue with the mine rails at the stern. As built, the Shiratsuyus had mine rails that extended unusually far forward, past both sets of athwarships depth charge racks. The rails were also splayed slightly outward as they extended forward. They also hung slightly over the stern. To the best of my knowledge, these rails were removed when additional stern roll-off racks were added to the class from mid 1943 on.

Both the Fujimi and PitRoad kits have the splayed out mine rails. However, the PitRoad kit correctly shows the elongated rails for a pre/early war fit whereas the Fujimi kit rails only extend forward to the start of the stern steel treading. The Fujimi kit also has alignment holes for roll off depth charge racks to be placed between the rails.

I don’t believe the Fujimi kit to be correct in this respect. At the very least, either the mine rails have to be extended for an early war fit or removed completely for mid to late war fit so as to fit the roll off racks with unimpeded clearance."

As the photo below attests, it appears that for at least one ship of this class, the extended mine rails at the stern were deleted prior to the war. I'm not sure if it was a partial deletion back to the depth charge racks, or if they were completely deleted. I make that timing judgement based on the dress flag display in the second photo. Dress flag displays were common before the war, not after the start. (I suspect that this particular display might have been from the 1940 IJN Naval Review attended by Emperor Hirohito.)

This change means that the Fujimi kit is at least partially correct as molded. Some decent views of the rigging as well. (photos courtesy of Berend)


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Shiratsuyu class - unknown destroyer with crewmember 3.jpg
Shiratsuyu class - unknown destroyer with crewmember 3.jpg [ 127.47 KiB | Viewed 1701 times ]
Shiratsuyu class - prewar sm.jpg
Shiratsuyu class - prewar sm.jpg [ 119.22 KiB | Viewed 1701 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:06 pm 
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Question.. im all set to finally start my Shigure ... but my question is, on both Shigure and Samidare would the port holes be plated over? And Samidare had no radar of any type on her mast correct? And lastly did Samidare have any Single mounts added to her and if so where? Thanks as always!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:36 am 
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I don't suppose there are any Photo-Etch kits for the Round Bridge type Shiratsuyu DDs, are there?

Specifically for 1942.

MB

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:55 am 
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Not if you're looking to improve on the bridge facing itself. I actually think the kit bridge is pretty good.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:54 am 
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Oh I for got to put that my question is for late war samidarie fit..


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:36 pm 
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Quote:
but my question is, on both Shigure and Samidare would the port holes be plated over? And Samidare had no radar of any type on her mast correct? And lastly did Samidare have any Single mounts added to her and if so where?


Samidare's last yard vist was in Dec. 1943 for repairs. She almost certainly had her portholes plated over. Hard to say if she would have received even a Type 22 radar upon the foremast. The yard visit doesn't seem long enough, and radar equipment was in short supply. It's possible, but not definite. Some single 13mm or 25mm mounts are probable, but not definite. More typically, these singles were added to other DDs during summer, 1944.

That said, Shigure gained them (as well as having her portholes plated over) by late April, 1944, after her more lengthy yard visit.


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