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 Post subject: Deck rail methods
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:31 pm 
Hello All,

New to the board but been admiring the gallery models for awhile. I'm an experienced modeler but in other genres. Just a few ventures, a long time ago, into 1/700s and must admit didn't build them very well.

The question I have is regarding attaching deck railings. I've search the forum (and a much broader search on the web and other sites) but really couldn't find a "Railing for Dummies" type tutorial. If any has links of old posts or sites, please let me know.

This is all in preparation for the 1/350 Akagi. This time I plan to do a decent job. I've worked with PE in other genres (1/43 autos, 1/16 armor, and 1/48 airplane) so I know some basics. I guess railings just scares the s***t out of me


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Dear Guest, sorry but you didn't post your name,

Don't worry, it really isn't that hard, believe me.

Firstly, choose the right type of railing. Make sure you get the type that has a continuous rail going along the bottom, representing the waterway at the deck edge. Don't try using the type that has individual stanchions that have to be stuck to the ship.

Secondly, cutting. Do this on a hard surface, such as a piece of glass or a ceramic wall tile. Take a new scalpel blade, Swann-Morton surgical type, rather than X-Acto, which are far too brittle and won't stand up to cutting metal. Cut the railing by pressing straight down, not using any kind of sawing motion which would distort the railing.

Thirdly, bending. I recommend a soft surface such as the back of a computer mouse mat. Don't bother using a Hold & Fold or similar for railings; it's easier without one. Leave the devices for bending inclined ladders or lattice masts. Bend railings by taking a straight scalpel blade and pressing straight down across the railing. It won't cut it, but the resilient surface of the mouse mat will cause you to get a nice sharp bend in the railing. The harder you press, the more acute the bend. make sure that the scalpel is going across the railing exactly at right anfles or the bend will end up squint. You can do curves and circles as well, by taking a circular metal rod, such as a drill and rolling it along the railing. Again, the harder you press and the smaller diameter the rod is, the tighter the curve. You can even get complete circles to go around searchlight platforms .

Fourthly, and this is the interesting bit, fixing. I like to get the length of railing exactly in position before applying any glue. Some peole suggesting applying superglue at one end and then working along. But if you start off with eventhe tiniest of inaccuracies, this will amplify itself as you proceed along the length of rail. I cut tiny strips of masking tape 2cm long by 1cm wide and stick these very lightly to the side of the ship's hull every centimetre or so, vertically so that they stick up above the deckline for half their length, like gigantic stanchions. You can now take the length of railing and nestle it in its precise position, and get things adjusted perfectly before any glue is applied. Don't try fixing long lengths of railing, a couple of inches only. This way you will avoid problems with differential expansion in response to changes in temperature. Also, don't use superglue to fix the railings. The bond has poor shear strength and if you do get expansion problems it will detach itself straightaway. I use PVA glue, diluted with a bit of water so that I can apply it with a fine brush. It is quite strong enough, gives a more flexible joint than superglue and has gap filling properties. After the glue has set, in a few minutes, carefully remove the masking tape strips and the railings will be perfectly positioned. You may have to touch up with some more of the PVA. Any shiny gluespots will be hidden if you give the finished model a spray with matt varnish when you are totally finished.

See, easy.

Kind regards,

David Griffith

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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Thanks for your help. Really appreciate it. Will have to try the PVA for my 1/43 auto projects.

As far as the rail selection, I'm afraid I'm stuck with the single post stanchion type as I'm getting the Hasegawa set for the Akagi. Do you recommend drilling holes into the deck for each stanchion?


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:12 pm 
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I would not even attempt to drive myself mad drilling all those holes--the chances of drill slippage etc is just too great!!

Take a sideways step--and acquire a set of GMM or WEM superfine IJN railings-it may well be worth buying an entire ship set such as Yamato or Nagato or similar to get the finest railing.( some of the parts will be useful now or later!)

Beware- some railing can be 'clunky' and end up looking like a fence-you will be spending MONTHS on your 1/350 Akagi--a few more £/ $ will be a worthwhile investment to get the finest ( thinnest) railings on the market-which my experience hitherto the likes of Hasegewa are not.

David Griffith outlined very precisely the basics- I differ hardly in my methodology hardly at all.

But two point's I can only re-iterate
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) If you find the PE rails too springy, hard to form around intricate platform outlines etc - run the PE through a flame--candle or lighter
This will soften the metal and remove the spring- all sorts of bizarre shapes can now easily be formed!!

2) Bear in mind that plastic /resin contracts and expands at a different rate to the brass

If for example you rail the model in a warm room--when the model contracts the railings can 'snake' along the deck edge-or worse, part company with the deck edge or even ping off!!!!!

Therefore I always attach railings in very short lengths-no more than 50 mm( 2 inches) and join the longitudinals to an adjacent stanchion using thinned white glue( PVA)- this gives 'expansion' joints and prevents the above nightmare scenario!!

Good luck

Jim Baumann- railing addict! :big_grin:

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....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:41 pm 
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David and Jim!

Do I understand you correctly that saying that you "take the length of railing" (David) or "attach railings in very short lengths" (Jim) you mean that you cut a piece of PE railing into those small parts - "a couple of inches only" (David) or "50 mm" (Jim) and attach those small pieces gluing them to the hull/deck and also between each other longitudinally? If so, do you use PVA for longitudinal joints also? How do you achieve consisten railing - I see a difficulty in longitudinal joints than.

Or it means that you do not cut the piece of PE (as it goes in PE set) but do the "attachment job" by "couple of inches"?

I have another related question to you Jim. When you made your Konig forward main bridge railing, for example, did you bend PE along the bridge and bridge wings or you were cutting small length of PE with the size equal to the length of the wings?

Thank you very much in advance for your answer.

Yevgeniy


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:06 pm 
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Dear Yevgeniy,

What I mean is that you cut a piece of railing a couple of inches long, and fix it to the deck edge. then take another piece and fix it similarly, beginning at the point where the last one ended. If you position it precisely, you won't be able to see the join. That way, if you do get differential expansion the linear expansion or contraction, and therefore jointline movement, will be a percentage of a small length. Even though you may find it physically possible, and even easy, by my method to fix a whole run of GMM or WEM railing in one piece, you will be much more likely to get it popping off from the side of the ship, because the linear movement will be that much greater. Trust me on this one, I've had it happen to me lots of times in the past!!!

Regards,

David

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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:20 pm 
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yes- I too mean cut the railing in 1/700 into small pieces @ 50 mm ( 2 inches)

in 1/350 - on my Roma I cut the railing into 2 - 3 - 4inch (50 - 75- 100 mm pieces)

I cut alongside a stanchion- and the join the end of the longitudinals butting to the stanchion-and touch them with thinned white glue--this makes a good and flexible join

see pics at bottom of posting

I always ensure there is a stanchion on a corner--such as on Koenigs Bridge I have cut a piece of railing the correct length, then another piece, but at the end by the stanchion of the second piece put in a 90 degree bend to make a shape like an L

Then glue on both and you should have a stanchion on each corner of the bridge wings.
On mine in any case the railings then had 'canvas'- made of white glue-paint railings first-white glue dries clear-paint canvas(dry white glue) on the OUTSIDE and you can then see the railings inside and the painted canvas outside..

send me your e-mail address via PM--I have taken the pics you requested

JIM B :wave_1:

The white arrows point to joins on my Roma...!

I use joins to prevent expansion/contraction problems--but also it allows me to change the lengths of the railings to ensure that the railing does not foul a fairlead/cleat etc etc--or for an upswept bow like Roma-the rails were made in lots of short pieces with lightly angled cuts to permit the railing to follow the curve of the bow. apiece




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_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:56 pm 
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Thanks Jim,

Went to the GMM site and looked around. Think I'll get their book as well. Does WEM have a website? The railings on your Roma looks awesome. Hard to believe you did not do any drilling. Do you have any in-progress shots of attaching railings?

I'm a slow modeler so yeah it will be a long buiild.

Here's my last project. It a ship, just not the ocean going kind. She's 39" long and 24" wide.
Attachment:
Painted_1.JPG
Painted_1.JPG [ 54.13 KiB | Viewed 21941 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:10 am 
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WEM's website: http://whiteensignmodels.com/

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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:39 am 
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Dear David and Jim,

Thank you both very much for these clear instructions. Now it is 100% clear.

David, I do trust you when you describe linear expansion. I had good physics courses in colleage and later in uni so that I understand you very well. Thank you for re-wording your tip - now it is quite easy-to-grasp (will see how easy it is to implement:smallsmile: ). And I want to be on the safe side with my PE installation so that I will not go a "one-long-piece" way.

Jim,

Thank you for your explanations and expecially for these pics which are +2000 words :thumbs_up_1: Also special thanks for describing how you did railings on bridge wings of your Konig. I will need them shortly as I am finishing forward superstructure and will attach railings soon. And again, thank you for describing how to attach railings to the deck at the bow - I always wondered how it is possible to make railings to follow bow curvature so precisely. But I now I can better imagine how much work you put into your Roma.

By the way, I suspected than you installed all the railing on the forward bridge and attached a canvass to it - I can guess railings under the canvass from your photos. But I thought you used cigarette paper saturated with glue or something like this.

I have already sent you an e-mail (to your e-mail address) with my address. I will also send you a PM with the same info in case your address has changed.

Thank you both very much.

Yevgeniy


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:36 am 
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Dear Yevgeniy,

You're welcome, it's a pleasure.

Kind regards,

David

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"For scientific leadership, give me Scott. For swift and efficient travel give me Amundsen. But when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton."


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:23 am 
Dear Jim
Thanks so much for that bit of information.
I have been pulling my hair out. working in 1:700
is hard enough but when I finally graduated to added
PE I found that 1:700 railing impossiable to install
and look good. I am going to try your method. I did
discover on my own that using plain old ELMERS glue
works well with those railings or any thing small, because
there is absouloutly no residue that remains. What do you
think of that Idea, and what type of glue do you other
fellows use for ship railings.
Thanks
Robert.....
Clayton/NJ :heh:


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Just found this by accident but I think I will get some for my project:

http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules ... nt&id=2660


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:18 pm 
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Good evening,
It's a very interesting post. I have one question. How do you measure the lenght of PE you need ?
For instance if there's an angle, how do you report it on the PE before bending it ?
Thanks for your help
Tom


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:40 pm 
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I use dividers and mark off the distance (es) on a piece of paper and add them together.

I always ensure there is a stanchion in the corner-(where appropriate) or make it out of two or more pieces

My dividers look much like these

Attachment:
dividers  1.jpg
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the type with the screw adjustment is too slow to use on a model.

JIM B

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for your answer. I'll try this next week-end on my Nimitz.
Tom


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:09 am 
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Am I correct to assume that the PE railing is prepainted, before attaching it?

Kurt


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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Depends on your sanity level. Most people paint them before putting them on, but others like to paint them afterwards. Pre-painting is probably easier, but putting them on before painting definitely gives it an interesting look.

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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:57 pm 
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I use Blue Tack for locking small PE parts on its right position, and acupuncture needles that i have cut off most of the needle, and very thin CA glue. The needle is very thin and that half cut needle will catch a tiny drop of glue at its tip, and without touching the PE part, caterpillar action glues it together.
Blue Tack will stuck to rails or whatever it comes in contact with, just take some Blue Tack and carefully touch it several times till its gone, sorry my english.

Be careful, once i had that drop of CA glue on the tip of an way to long needle, it catched something and the drop where trown into my eye, :doh_1: Thats an experiense i dont want for my worst enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: deck rail methods
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:57 am 
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Shall not we make it sticky on better move to FAQ ...may be Jim and David posts only. It is the best thing I have read on PE railings.

Yevgeniy


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