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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:58 am 
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Jim has written a lot about the Guppy class. Again, I have many of his articles in pdf.

And yes, that is the one off, S1C reactor, turbo electric drive, PUFFS equipped USS Tulibee. An attempt at a quiet,nuclear powered SSKN. Because of her many technical problems and time at the service pier, also known as Building 597 at Electric Boat.

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"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:04 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
Jim has written a lot about the Guppy class. Again, I have many of his articles in pdf.

And yes, that is the one off, S1C reactor, turbo electric drive, PUFFS equipped USS Tulibee. An attempt at a quiet,nuclear powered SSKN. Because of her many technical problems and time at the service pier, also known as Building 597 at Electric Boat.



Tom, I'd love to read some of his articles. What have you?

Been back and forth with him last couple of weeks (that was me that posted as "Guest" a couple of weeks ago, thought I was logged in at the time) and I think I've gotten to the bottom of R&D ahead of GUPPY development. It doesn't appear that there necessarily was any R&D driving the GUPPY changes given the budget aspects of the program. Instead, it appears they were experience-driven. I have found reference to tow-tank testing for the Tang class, and Christley conceded there might have been post-analysis done on the GUPPYs, but he wasn't sure. Problem seems that some of this might be caught up in secrecy as it, as he said, "overlaps with the early nuke programs." So it might be hard to draw out and you'd really need to know where to look. Ultimately it matters not, I was simply trying to satisfy a personal curiosity; did anyone ever tow-tank test the GUPPYs and are there any resulting reports on their findings. I find that sort of thing very interesting as I've spent a career in motorsports aerodynamics.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:46 pm 
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Woodstock74 wrote:
It doesn't appear that there necessarily was any R&D driving the GUPPY changes given the budget aspects of the program. Instead, it appears they were experience-driven.


Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it is not true at all that no research went into the GUPPYs. All U.S. Navy ships have design decisions driven by research and justified by some sort of calculation, model testing, or previous design practice. And the GUPPYs were not just shipyard modifications (SHIPALTS), they were conversions which required budgetary authorization from congress just like brand new ships.

To quote The Hunt for Red October, "Russkies don't take a dump without a plan, son." The same is true for BuShips/NAVSHIPS/NAVSEA ;)

Woodstock74 wrote:
Ultimately it matters not, I was simply trying to satisfy a personal curiosity; did anyone ever tow-tank test the GUPPYs and are there any resulting reports on their findings.


Yes, as would be the case for any such major modification to the submarine's lines. Email me, I may have a document that would interest you.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:59 am 
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Vepr157 wrote:
Woodstock74 wrote:
It doesn't appear that there necessarily was any R&D driving the GUPPY changes given the budget aspects of the program. Instead, it appears they were experience-driven.


Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it is not true at all that no research went into the GUPPYs. All U.S. Navy ships have design decisions driven by research and justified by some sort of calculation, model testing, or previous design practice. And the GUPPYs were not just shipyard modifications (SHIPALTS), they were conversions which required budgetary authorization from congress just like brand new ships.

To quote The Hunt for Red October, "Russkies don't take a dump without a plan, son." The same is true for BuShips/NAVSHIPS/NAVSEA ;)

Woodstock74 wrote:
Ultimately it matters not, I was simply trying to satisfy a personal curiosity; did anyone ever tow-tank test the GUPPYs and are there any resulting reports on their findings.


Yes, as would be the case for any such major modification to the submarine's lines. Email me, I may have a document that would interest you.


No, not a misinterpretation, that was my take on what was said. And it would go against my gut as tow testing certainly wouldn't (shouldn't) break the budget. Furthermore, you could establish a data baseline by building a model of the existing Gato or German XXI. And then armed with that data, you could be certain you had gone well beyond that baseline with your improvements.

But I've been finding that this sort of raw data, even at 70+ years old, is certainly hard to come by. I came across a similar stopping point when trying to dig into the wind tunnel testing for the North American P-51. The shape didn't just materialize out of thin air. It was honed, and refined, most likely via hundreds of wind tunnel runs across multiple tests. And there should be a report documenting all of that. I'll shoot you an email.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:57 pm 
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I'm interested in getting some guidance on building either USS Tusk or Cochino from the operation in August 1949 when Cochino went down and Tusk served as a rescue vessel. I know both were Balao Class boats with Portsmouth Guppy conversions (Portsmouth sails). The main question I have regards their sonar setup above and below the water line at that point. I am particularly confused and have not been able to find any information about the sonar array both had on their forward decks. I'm also curious what they would have been outfitted with under the waterline. I have Mike Fuller's Portsmouth sail and sonar arrays at the ready to modify the AFV Club Guppy1B kit. Any guidance would be appreciated.

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~John~


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:48 am 
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The Cochino is an interesting case because in 1948 she was fitted with the U-3008's GHG sonar array mounted on the keel in the "chin" position. All the GUPPYs eventually ended up with BQR-2 in keel-mounted domes, like these plans show:

https://www.hnsa.org/wp-content/uploads ... /ss350.pdf

In time the Cochino's GHG certainly would have been replaced by a BQR-2, but I don't know if this was done before she sank. Similarly, I suspect, but don't know for certain, that the Tusk had a BQR-2. If you include the BQR-2 dome on your model of either, I don't think anyone would fault you.

As for the deck-mounted dome, it's a dome for the WFA active sonar. During WWII, it was just a cylinder on the deck, but since the GUPPYs were so much faster underwater they had to put it in a dome.

Jacob

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:35 pm 
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Hi all,

I thought someone here may be able to assist:

I'm wanting to build USS Sea Poacher (SS-406) - I have a USN airship and plan to do a diorama of the rescue (see pic).

It was a Balao class sub, and in 1951 became the first GUPPY 1A conversion. But photos at the time seems to show a Portsmouth sail (modified from the original WWII Balao sail configuration I assume?). However, later photos show it with the smaller, streamlined GUPPY 2 sail. But from what I understand didn't seem to get the batteries, etc of the GUPPY 2, always referred to as a 1A.

It looks like it had the Portsmouth sail during the rescue, so I'll use that, but soon after (mid-50's?) got the new sail, and is shown with that sail in photos and when transferred to Argentine Navy service.

I'm going to use the Hobby Boss GUPPY 2 and a 3D sail, but really curious if they did sail replacements from the early 1A/1B conversions to later streamlined sails? Perhaps as part of Fleet Snorkel upgrades?

Thanks,
Darren


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USS_Sea_Poacher_(SS-406)_underway_c1965.jpg [ 54.63 KiB | Viewed 12206 times ]
overhead view of rescue small 2.jpg
overhead view of rescue small 2.jpg [ 125.15 KiB | Viewed 12206 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:26 am 
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Cool idea for a diorama!

All GUPPYs as converted had either the Portsmouth or EB sails, which were essentially the same in function but different in appearance. Starting in about 1960 or so, many fleet submarines received a substantially larger "plastic" (fiberglass) sail which moved the bridge to the top of the sail (which was drier in bad weather, hence the nickname of "northern sail" or "North Atlantic sail"). As far as I know, the GUPPY IIIs were the only type to uniformly get the plastic sails. Most of the GUPPYs and fleet snorkels in service after about 1960 had their Portsmouth/EB sails replaced with the plastic sails.

By the way, if you are interested in fleet boats, I would highly recommend John Alden's book The Fleet Submarine in the U.S. Navy.

Jacob

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:38 am 
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As Jacob mentioned, the high Atlantic fiberglass sails were retrofitted on several of the previous Guppy conversions. Many of the Guppy operations were in the northern Atlantic and Pacific oceans, where wave heights could easily swamp the bridges of the two earlier step sail versions. The fiberglass was over a metal framework structure, with the bridge structure raised to the top.

An easy distinguishing feature between Guppy III’s and the earlier Guppy’s that received the Atlantic sail is that Guppy III also received the three PUFFS sonar fins on the upper deck. A more subtle feature is that they are 15 feet longer, due to a hull plug inserted forward of the control area, housing a more extensive sonar electronics suite.

The last surviving Guppy III, Clamagore, is to be sunk as an artificial reef for divers. It has been poorly maintained by the group at Patriots Point in South Carolina. Lots of corrosion and missing parts topside. The interior is in surprisingly good shape, however. Some sub vets have been trying to save her, but the group at Patriots Point seems determined to sink her.

I visited there two years ago and photographed it with my Nikon DSLR. I subsequently wrote an article for the SubCommittee Report, which can be accessed at this link on Navsource:
https://navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0834331.pdf

Lots of color exterior and interior photos, and I have many more. I have the resin Clamagore kit which Yankee ModelWorks put out years ago. It has the PUFFS and the plug. I will be using an old Tom’s Models Guppy III sail, which has more accurate features. Right now, my Guppy IA Becuna needs only a dull coat to complete it.

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Researcher for: "Project Azorian”
https://www.amazon.com/Azorian-Raising-K-129-Michael-White/dp/B008QTU7QY
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
https://www.usni.org/press/books/project-azorian


Last edited by Tom Dougherty on Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:37 pm 
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Some additional info for those interested via the Submarine Sighting Guide, June 1958 edition.

pdf is linked at the top of the page: https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... 31-2a.html

CCC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:45 am 
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Thanks Tom, Jacob and CCC. Great information and clears it up for me. As usual a wealth of knowledge here :-)

Looks like Portsmouth sail is the go, and I might do a later GUPPY with the high sail.

Not sure when I'll get to the diorama, but will be sure to post it here when I do.

Thanks,
Darren

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:17 pm 
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Anyone have any thoughts about the book The Submarine Guppy Edition, https://www.amazon.com/Submarine-Guppy-United-States-Navy/dp/1935327143?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:18 am 
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There are two versions of the Guppy submarine book. The 1956 edition book is an update of the WWII Fleet Submarine Manual, hence a highly technical, nuts & bolts coverage of submarine systems. It uses Becuna, SS319 as the example. Becuna was a Guppy Ia, so features such as the expanded 514 cell battery of Guppy II are probably only mentioned. Since it was published in the 1950’s, coverage of the heavily modified Guppy III e.g., Clamagore) are absent. There is a later, 1963 Edition Submarine book also listed on the site below. That appears to cover the later and final evolution, the Guppy III. Again a highly technical coverage of the systems in these boats, The Guppy III boats were literally cut forward of the control room and a 15 foot “hull plug” installed to create space for an expanded sonar suite. Externally, they all had the High Atlantic Sail and three PUFFS sonar fins on deck. You can see more in my coverage of Clamagore here: http://navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0834331.pdf

Best source for the books (least expensive) is probably Periscope Films. Here are the manuals, including both of the Guppy manuals.
https://periscopefilm.com/submarine-manual/

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Researcher for: "Project Azorian”
https://www.amazon.com/Azorian-Raising-K-129-Michael-White/dp/B008QTU7QY
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
https://www.usni.org/press/books/project-azorian


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:31 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
So that book is an update of the WWII Fleet Submarine Manual, hence a highly technical, nuts & bolts coverage of submarine systems. It uses Becuna, SS319 as the example. Becuna was a Guppy Ia, so features such as the expanded 514 cell battery of Guppy II are probably only mentioned. Since it was published in the 1950’s, coverage of the heavily modified Guppy III e.g., Clamagore) are absent. There is a 1963 Submarine book also listed on the site below. Whether that covers Guppy III, I don’t know.

Best source (least expensive) is probably Periscope Films. Here are the manuals, including the Guppy manual.
https://periscopefilm.com/submarine-manual/


Thanks for the reply Tom. Reading through the description of the 1963 book it doesn't make any mention of Guppys so the Guppy-specific book (published in 1961) might be the way to go, though I'm now on the fence altogether, lol!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:35 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
There are two versions of the Guppy submarine book. The 1956 edition book is an update of the WWII Fleet Submarine Manual, hence a highly technical, nuts & bolts coverage of submarine systems. It uses Becuna, SS319 as the example. Becuna was a Guppy Ia, so features such as the expanded 514 cell battery of Guppy II are probably only mentioned. Since it was published in the 1950’s, coverage of the heavily modified Guppy III e.g., Clamagore) are absent. There is a later, 1963 Edition Submarine book also listed on the site below. That appears to cover the later and final evolution, the Guppy III. Again a highly technical coverage of the systems in these boats, The Guppy III boats were literally cut forward of the control room and a 15 foot “hull plug” installed to create space for an expanded sonar suite. Externally, they all had the High Atlantic Sail and three PUFFS sonar fins on deck. You can see more in my coverage of Clamagore here: http://navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0834331.pdf

Best source for the books (least expensive) is probably Periscope Films. Here are the manuals, including both of the Guppy manuals.
https://periscopefilm.com/submarine-manual/



Came across your pdf the other night and grabbed it though until you pointed it out I wasn't aware you had written it! Very well done and it goes straight into my reference library. Love the Guppys and have been on the Clamagore before (about 11 years ago) as she's just down the road from me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:49 am 
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Here’s hoping she stays just down the road. The plan by Patriot’s Point was to sink her for an artificial reef for divers. The exterior hull is in bad shape, but the interior is in excellent condition. It is the sole remaining Guppy III.

Yeah, the printed description of the 1963 edition is sparse, to say the least. If it is not a reprint, but an update, I would expect it covers Guppy III.

I do know that the Guppy III program was an early 1960’s effort. The motivation to modify existing Guppy subs to Guppy III standard was due to the slow build up of nuclear SSNs. This was partly due to the diversion of building to the Polaris SSBN program, and later the delays due to the loss of Thresher and implementation of SubSafe measures.

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https://www.amazon.com/Azorian-Raising-K-129-Michael-White/dp/B008QTU7QY
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
https://www.usni.org/press/books/project-azorian


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:03 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
Here’s hoping she stays just down the road. The plan by Patriot’s Point was to sink her for an artificial reef for divers. The exterior hull is in bad shape, but the interior is in excellent condition. It is the sole remaining Guppy III.

Yeah, the printed description of the 1963 edition is sparse, to say the least. If it is not a reprint, but an update, I would expect it covers Guppy III.

I do know that the Guppy III program was an early 1960’s effort. The motivation to modify existing Guppy subs to Guppy III standard was due to the slow build up of nuclear SSNs. This was partly due to the diversion of building to the Polaris SSBN program, and later the delays due to the loss of Thresher and implementation of SubSafe measures.


Someone posted images of the Clamagore taken recently and it appeared they were in the process of dismantling the upper deck structure, thus moving forward with the reefing plan? Man I hope not. Only one of her kind as you point out. That alone should be enough to spare her, surely? That and money, of course...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:55 pm 
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Is this shot of the Tork's screw indicative of Fleet Snorkel screws? As this image is of her in dry dock in modern day, wanted to make sure what I'm seeing would be accurate to in-era. I'm specifically wondering about the slots in the screw boss trailing edge. Is this part of the Prairie system?

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:37 pm 
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Woodstock74 wrote:
Is this shot of the Tork's screw indicative of Fleet Snorkel screws? As this image is of her in dry dock in modern day, wanted to make sure what I'm seeing would be accurate to in-era. I'm specifically wondering about the slots in the screw boss trailing edge. Is this part of the Prairie system?

Image


That looks like the standard fleet boat propeller, which is what I assume the fleet snorkels kept. I don't believe any of them get Prarie-Masker as it required an engine to be removed. The holes in the propeller blades are tiny, so the best way to tell is if there is a girth emitter and pipe leading to the propellers like this, which the Torsk doesn't have:

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:23 am 
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Interesting, so the only possible visual indication of Prairie/Masker are what are effectively pipes I'm guessing running outside the pressure hull/exterior cladding?


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