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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Help:
I'm building several Cold war submarines in 1/350 scale. Both my father and brother
served on many of these boats over the last 50 years. I already have
the Yankee Models Lafayette class and Franklin Class, but in dire need of
a Ethan Allen class - anyone have plans or converted a Lafayette/Franklin
to a Allen Class??
Robert Bond
San Antonio, TX


Last edited by rcbond4449 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:23 pm 
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Hi Robert,
I too have a large collection of Cold War submarines, including both YKM resin and Seawolf/Torpedo Combat Subs Nautilus, Halibut (SSGN and Spec ops) and the Regulus Grayback SSG. Still have plenty to build!

To your specific question: the problem with a conversion is that the Ethan Allens were shorter (410 feet) than Lafayette & Franklins (425 ft.). Thus you would have to shorten the hulls back in the machinery spaces; not easy due to the taper. There were only 5 Allen class boats SSBN 608, 609, 610, 611 and 618. The Allens were the first purpose designed SSBN class, and incorporated silencing features (rafted machinery) not found in the Washington class. The preceeding Washington (SSBN-598) class were 382 feet and modified (heavily) from a Skipjack hull.

To my knowledge, the only model of this class is the old (inaccurate) Renwal Ethan Allen, which is also not scaled properly nor highly accurate.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:49 am 
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rcbond4449 wrote:
Help:
I'm building several Cold war submarines in 1/350 scale. Both my father and brother
served on many of these boats over the last 50 years. I already have
the Yankee Models Lafayette class and Franklin Class, but in dire need of
a Ethan Allen class - anyone have plans or converted a Lafayette/Franklin
to a Allen Class??
Robert Bond
San Antonio, TX

Unfortunatly I dont have an information about an USS Ethan Allen class SSBN. OKG-Grigorov are producing 1/700 USN SSBN of the USS George Washington, USS Lafayette/USS James Madison/USS Benjamin Franklin but no USS Ethan Allen class. USS Ethan Allen class was considerable different from USS George Washington and USS Lafayette/USS James Madison/USS Benjamin Franklin, a conversion is feasible but risky as there are not many accurate plans available and pictures dont help a lot.
I will try and convince Georgi to make a 1/700 USS Ethan Allen class.




Anyway, got some questions.
This is USS Theodore Roosevelt, the third USS George Washington class SSBN. You can see she was original built with 5 blade propelers
Image

Image
This is the USS Patrick Henry, the second USS George Washington class SSBN.
USS George Washinton class submarine where original built with 5 blade propelers and Polaris A1 ballistic missiles, but in this picture we see USS Patick Henry with a 7 blade one.
My question, does anyone know when the upgrade of the 7 blade one occured ? During the Polaris A3 upgrade, earlier, or later ?Did later class of SSBN USS Ethan Allen and USS Lafayette/USS James Madison/USS Benjamin Franklin was also first completed with 5 blade propelers wich later where upgraded to 7 ?
Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:10 pm 
Quote:
Unfortunatly I dont have an information about an USS Ethan Allen class SSBN. OKG-Grigorov are producing 1/700 USN SSBN of the USS George Washington, USS Lafayette/USS James Madison/USS Benjamin Franklin but no USS Ethan Allen class. USS Ethan Allen class was considerable different from USS George Washington and USS Lafayette/USS James Madison/USS Benjamin Franklin, a conversion is feasible but risky as there are not many accurate plans available and pictures dont help a lot.
I will try and convince Georgi to make a 1/700 USS Ethan Allen class.




Anyway, got some questions.
This is USS Theodore Roosevelt, the third USS George Washington class SSBN. You can see she was original built with 5 blade propelers
Image

Image
This is the USS Patrick Henry, the second USS George Washington class SSBN.
USS George Washinton class submarine where original built with 5 blade propelers and Polaris A1 ballistic missiles, but in this picture we see USS Patick Henry with a 7 blade one.
My question, does anyone know when the upgrade of the 7 blade one occured ? During the Polaris A3 upgrade, earlier, or later ?Did later class of SSBN USS Ethan Allen and USS Lafayette/USS James Madison/USS Benjamin Franklin was also first completed with 5 blade propelers wich later where upgraded to 7 ?
Thanks in advance.


Good evening and thank you for you reply

I have a number of Georgi's fine models I working on now, for a Christmas present for my
little brother (all 6 of the subs, and the Tico Class CG that he was one). Once that is
done I'll turn my attention to doing ships that Dad was on..So the Allen class and
some of the late cold war Balao and Gato GUPPY conversions would be great.

. Going to have to scratch build two possibly and one for me (CGC Valiant). I've done a little in HO scale trains thought I'd ships a shot....

Momma's calling for dinner..

Robert Bond
San Antonio tx


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
Hi Robert,
I too have a large collection of Cold War submarines, including both YKM resin and Seawolf/Torpedo Combat Subs Nautilus, Halibut (SSGN and Spec ops) and the Regulus Grayback SSG. Still have plenty to build!

To your specific question: the problem with a conversion is that the Ethan Allens were shorter (410 feet) than Lafayette & Franklins (425 ft.). Thus you would have to shorten the hulls back in the machinery spaces; not easy due to the taper. There were only 5 Allen class boats SSBN 608, 609, 610, 611 and 618. The Allens were the first purpose designed SSBN class, and incorporated silencing features (rafted machinery) not found in the Washington class. The preceeding Washington (SSBN-598) class were 382 feet and modified (heavily) from a Skipjack hull.

To my knowledge, the only model of this class is the old (inaccurate) Renwal Ethan Allen, which is also not scaled properly nor highly accurate.


Nice list of subs, Tom.

I'm building the Waveline/Combat Subs Regulus II Grayback for the current sub-themed group build online here. I've learned a bit about the boat through the process, with questions, answers and speculations posted there. Still prowling for their Nautilus and Halibut (both version) sub kits (but do have their Russian India Class rescue sub kit, also under construction).

In the meantime, I content myself with all of OKB's USN offerings in 1:700 scale - particularly like his SSN 575 Seawolf and Skate. Triton as a radar picket boat is on the way!

- D-Boy


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:59 pm 
I have one of the original Renwall kits of the Allen.
(I also served aboard her 2/1972 - 12/1975
I found it at a garage sale many years ago with intentions of building it, but of course never did.

I'd be happy to send it to you if you could make use of it as a basis for your model construction.
I'd love to hav some photo's of it when you were finished.


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:09 pm 
I reported aboard the Ethan Allen SSBN 608 Feb 1972 in Bremerton Yard during a Refueling/Refit. I believe that was the A3 upgrade for her as well, however I think she was already carrying the 7 blade by then.
Not sure if that helps you all.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Quote:
I reported aboard the Ethan Allen SSBN 608 Feb 1972 in Bremerton Yard during a Refueling/Refit. I believe that was the A3 upgrade for her as well, however I think she was already carrying the 7 blade by then.


More likely in 1972 that it was the Poseidon C-3 upgrade, with MIRV capability. The Polaris A-3 went into service in 1964.

The 7 blade J type props were fitted very early in the 1960's, once it became apparent that "blade rate" was a major noise problem. The sternplanes, rudder, and sail all leave a disturbed wake behind them, and the originally fitted five bladed propellers (which were more rounded and did not have skew-see photo below of Scamp under construction) entered the wake patterns abruptly, resulting in vibration and low frequency noise. Low frequency noise carries for quite some distance in the deep sound channel of the ocean, and the SOSUS passive sonar hydrophone arrays took advantage of this channel. The early Skipjack and SSBNs were readily tracked by the SOSUS network. The 7 blade J type damped propeller (see photo), by gradually having the blades enter and exit the disturbed wake area, reduced the blade rate noise. Early SSBNs (the initial 5 boats), based on the Skipjack class, also did not have the rafted machinery platforms, so between the original props and the lack of machinery sound proofing, they were fairly noisy overall. The damped J type propellers were kept secret up through the 1980's, as this represented a major acoustic advantage, and Soviet submarines did not have propellers of this design, and were thus were more noisy than US submarines. See photo of Alfa class SSN with non-skewed propeller, below. The sale to the USSR of specialized, classified milling equipment in 1987 by Toshiba resulted in much quieter propellers on Soviet submarines.


Attachments:
File comment: Original 5 bladed propeller on USS Scamp, SSN-590
Scamp prop photo.jpg
Scamp prop photo.jpg [ 146.19 KiB | Viewed 12018 times ]
File comment: 7 bladed J Type Propeller
J Type Prop-2.jpg
J Type Prop-2.jpg [ 106.52 KiB | Viewed 12018 times ]
File comment: Russian Alfa class SSN propeller
Alfa Propeller.jpg
Alfa Propeller.jpg [ 125.08 KiB | Viewed 12018 times ]

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Researcher for: "Azorian: The Raising of the K-129" DVD
http://www.projectjennifer.at/
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
http://www.usni.org/store/catalog-fall-2012/project-azorian
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:51 am 
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OKB has released a resin-cast 1:700 scale model of the SSBN-626 Daniel Webster, circa 1964 (commissioning) - 1976/78 (refit). As such, it includes the boat's unique elevated bow-mounted dive planes that were removed during that refit: http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0862604.jpg (NavSource).

Picture of the kit here: http://www.shop.okbgrigorov.com/product/217/uss-daniel-webster-ssbn-626.html

I don't own this kit yet, but everything I've purchased from OKB has been flawlessly cast, and they are sweet little kits.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Does anyone know which boats in the Ethan Allen/Lafayette class had split-rudders? As far as I can gather, all the submarines of this class (I consider the Ethan Allens, Lafayettes, James Madisons, and Benjamin Franklins variants of a single class because they are all essentially the same submarine with incremental improvements) had a split rudder except the last few. And why did they have split rudders in the first place? I know the rudders for these submarines were massive, so maybe that has something to do with it. Also, most of the Lafayettes seem to have vertical end-plates on their aft planes as built or retrofitted. Does anyone know why these were added and to which boats?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Quote:
Does anyone know which boats in the Ethan Allen/Lafayette class had split-rudders?


If you mean a vertical split (like the Renwal SSBN models), then all of the drawings I have show them as one piece rudders. There is a horizontal line near the hull where the rudders hinge.

And yes, later SSBNs did have horizontal end plates on their rudders. I think it was from the Franklin onwards.

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http://www.projectjennifer.at/
"Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129" Book
http://www.usni.org/store/catalog-fall-2012/project-azorian


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:11 pm 
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I mean that the top 75% of the rudder rotates while the bottom 25% is fixed to the hull. It's really odd because some seem to have it and some don't, although I think only the last few had all-moving rudders.

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Under Construction:
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:56 am 
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Tom Dougherty wrote:
Hi Robert,
To your specific question: the problem with a conversion is that the Ethan Allens were shorter (410 feet) than Lafayette & Franklins (425 ft.). Thus you would have to shorten the hulls back in the machinery spaces; not easy due to the taper.

Dear all,

I just had the pleasure to construct the recent 1:350 MikroMir Lafayette, along with the George Washington of the same manufacturer. It struck me that the missile tube section of the Washington was much shorter (12.5mm or half an inch) than that of the Lafayette. Well, I figured: isn't this almost exactly the length difference between the Ethan Allans and the Lafayettes? :eyebrows:

And then checking the references: as the Poseidon missiles were 6'2"in diameter versus the Polaris 4'6", this differences could very well be accountable for the length difference between the Allan and Lafayette boats, and also the explanation why the Allans couldn't be upgraded to carry the Polaris missiles. Here's the math: there are eight missiles lengthwise, each Poseidon missile adds 22", so that makes 176" in total. The difference between the Allans and the Lafayettes is 180", so only 4 inches not accounted for, or less than .3mm on 350 scale...

It seems the Lafayettes (and Madisons and Franklins) had been designed from the outset to take the larger Poseidon missiles, and needed an adapter tube to carry the smaller Polaris missiles. This picture tells it all:
Attachment:
0865758resized.jpg
0865758resized.jpg [ 149.03 KiB | Viewed 9522 times ]
The Allans only had the smaller tubes, similar to the Washington, and no room (lengthwise) to allow for the larger Poseidon tubes.

So: am I right to conclude that for building an Ethan Allen from the Lafayette kit, I need only reduce the length of the missile compartment by 13 mm (scale 15 ft), and make a new deck with smaller tube covers, similar to the Washington's, but with the width of the Lafayette deck? Anyway, the length reduction isn't in the tapered area as Tom Dougherty suggested. :cool_2:

Of course the rudders need also be somewhat reduced in size. Btw: I found slight errors in the MikroMir kits: the lower rudders need to be reduced in height as the shouldn't protrude below the keel line. The draft marks on the upper rudder tell the story, how high the upper rudder rises above the keel line. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:43 am 
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Vepr157 wrote:
I mean that the top 75% of the rudder rotates while the bottom 25% is fixed to the hull. It's really odd because some seem to have it and some don't, although I think only the last few had all-moving rudders.


This was done to prevent high rudder angles from precipitating air entrapment by the propeller when cruising on the surface. Note that the fixed portion of vertical stabilizer (under the upper rudder) terminates at the normal surfaced waterline.

David
USS DANIEL WEBSTER (SSBN 626) blue

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:57 pm 
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Thanks for the information, David! I have two more questions:

Any idea why some of the Polaris boats had vertical stabilizers on their stern planes (USS Vallejo: http://i.imgur.com/WLNGACt.jpg)? Looking at this (http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0861610.jpg) photo of (clockwise from upper-left) Lafayette, Adams, Tecumseh, and Grant, it seems that some boats that didn't have these stabilizers had them retrofitted, possibly along with with their towed arrays.

On some of the boats, there is a small fin on the underside of the port aft plane (USS Hale: http://i.imgur.com/TDyUBgH.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/akjw6Xu.jpg). This is presumably associated with a towed array, but is it a mounting point for a clip-on array or where a thin-line array is streamed out (because the fat-line array is on the starboard side)?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:53 pm 
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Without them the 608's on up would wander a bit about the yaw axis at patrol speed. So the vertical stabilizers were added (some as retrofits, others as new-construction) to make the boats a bit more stable about that axis. Made life a bit easier for the Helmsman.

Can't speak to the second question -- don't know.

David

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:18 am 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Here's the math: there are eight missiles lengthwise, each Poseidon missile adds 22", so that makes 176" in total. The difference between the Allans and the Lafayettes is 180", so only 4 inches not accounted for, or less than .3mm on 350 scale...

Most authoritative sources quote the length of the Ethan Allens as 410 feet 4 inches, so the difference with the Lafayettes is only 14 feet 8 inches, or 176 inches. This equals therefore exactly the added increase of the diameter of eight missiles.

I was convinced, so I bit the bullet. Here's my Ethan Allen, in company with a George Washington and a Lafayette model, with the missile compartments aligned:
Attachment:
SSBN 1.jpg
SSBN 1.jpg [ 111.96 KiB | Viewed 9362 times ]
Attachment:
SSBN 2.jpg
SSBN 2.jpg [ 81.02 KiB | Viewed 9362 times ]

I'm only somewhat uncertain about the location of the hydrophone stump on the bow, it seems somewhat closer to the sail than on the subsequent Lafayettes. Can someone shed some light on this maybe?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:11 pm 
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" [And then checking the references: as the Poseidon missiles were 6'2"in diameter versus the Polaris 4'6", this differences could very well be accountable for the length difference between the Allan and Lafayette boats, and also the explanation why the Allans couldn't be upgraded to carry the Polaris missiles. Here's the math: there are eight missiles lengthwise, each Poseidon missile adds 22", so that makes 176" in total. The difference between the Allans and the Lafayettes is 180", so only 4 inches not accounted for, or less than .3mm on 350 scale..."

The Poseidon is 6'2" or 74 inches and the Polaris is 4' 6" or 54 inches. The difference is 20 inches, not 22 inches. Where does the extra 2 inches come from?

Eight tubes times 20 inches is 160 inches, not 176


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:47 pm 
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You guys got it wrong. Upgrade from Polaris to Poseidon made no difference to the boat length whatsoever. They simply took out the inner 'launch' tube from within the 'mount' tube to make the transition. This happened during a scheduled yard period.

Trust me, I was a Launcher Tech (Torpedoman) on the WEBSTER for nine patrols.

David

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:13 am 
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merriman wrote:
You guys got it wrong. Upgrade from Polaris to Poseidon made no difference to the boat length whatsoever. They simply took out the inner 'launch' tube from within the 'mount' tube to make the transition. This happened during a scheduled yard period.

Trust me, I was a Launcher Tech (Torpedoman) on the WEBSTER for nine patrols.

David


Hi David,
Thank you very much, the point is very clear! The Lafayettes could all be upgraded the way you described.

But the Ethan Allans couldn't, as these had only the smaller tubes similar as the Washingtons. That was the whole point of my conversion description. And therfore the length of the Allans was shorter than of the Lafayettes.

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