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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:12 am 
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I know this is an obscure topic.

But I have found that several manufacturers make these.

In 1/700 we have:

• Tamiya Gato-class sub & 2 No.13-class Sub-Chasers (1944 possibly discontinued, but they appear on eBay regularly)
• Tamiya Taiho Carier, Gato-class submarine, and 2 No.13-class Sub-Chasers (1944 discontinued)
• Five Star No.1-class Sub-Chaser (1941 without 40mm Guns)
• Five Star No.4-class Sub-Chaser No.7 (1941/44 without 40mm Guns)
• Five Star Sub-Chaser No.51 (Not No.28-class) (Pre-war/1941/44 without 80mm/40 HA gun)
• Rainbow Models No.13-class Sub-Chaser (1942 without 80mm/40 HA gun)
• Rainbow Models No.28-class Sub-Chaser (1942?/1945 without 80mm/40 HA gun)
• AKA Models Auxiliary Sub-Chaser Tama Maru (Early-war)
• AKA Models Auxiliary Sub-Chaser Shonan Maru (Early-war)
• AKA Models Auxiliary Sub-Chaser Takunan Maru (Early-war)


Five Star Models makes the 80mm/40 HA gun for the No.28-class and No.13-class Sub-Chasers.

Ingenuity Model Photo Etch set for sub chaser No.13-class (may also be used with the No.28-class).

All are waterline.


In 1/350 we have:

• Rainbow Models No.28-class Sub-Chaser (1945 - Full Hull)

And that is all I could find.

What would be nice to know is:

• If any photos of these exist to provide details for different ships?
• What were the 40mm AA Guns on the No.1-class and No.4-class Sub-Chasers. Were they "Twin-40mm" modeled after the Vickers Pom-Poms? Or were they a different variety?
• Does anyone make a decent accessory of the 40mm Guns on these classes?
• Anything else we should know about them?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Last edited by MatthewB on Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:45 am 
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Some pics, in order:Type 13 #25, Type 13 # 19, Type 28 # 51, Type 28 # 52


Attachments:
CH-19 sm.jpg
CH-19 sm.jpg [ 80.7 KiB | Viewed 3481 times ]
CH-25 sm.jpg
CH-25 sm.jpg [ 114.3 KiB | Viewed 3481 times ]
CH-51 sm.jpg
CH-51 sm.jpg [ 116.19 KiB | Viewed 3481 times ]
CH-52.jpg
CH-52.jpg [ 186.96 KiB | Viewed 3481 times ]
Unknown subchasers, postwar.jpg
Unknown subchasers, postwar.jpg [ 90.53 KiB | Viewed 3481 times ]
Unknown subchasers, postwar crop.jpg
Unknown subchasers, postwar crop.jpg [ 185.79 KiB | Viewed 3481 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Thanks, Dan.

Something that I have been wondering as I have been reading through the TROMs for the sub-chasers.

Did any of them ever succeed in sinking a sub?

Because I have yet to read one doing so.

I recently found a deal on eBay that was about 3 each of the No.1, No.4, & No.13-classes.

And I wanted to do them as groups that actually sank a USN or Allied sub (although how to make that distinction given the near uniformity of the ships.... I do not know).


They also all look like they are wearing degaussing cables, even in the post-war photos.

I thought the Japanese began removing degaussing cables when they proved to be of little use (or do I have that wrong?)?

And the cable on the No.13-class ship (#19) looks wider than on the other No.28-class models. Is that the case?


MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:06 pm 
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The sinking of USS Wahoo probably meets your criteria of a subchaser group kill. See also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... rld_War_II

I doubt the degaussing cable on #19 is any wider than the others. The degaussing cable was found to be ineffective by 1943-44, but that didn't seem to stop the installation of them, at least on smaller vessels.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:42 am 
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I've been researching this class as well as I'm building Ch-46 and CH-53 with took part in Ormoc bay attempted landing in November 1944. As Far as Dan and I can see , we havnt been able to find evidence of the Degaussing cables like the one on the Rainbow model 1/350 cover photo . My personal guess it that most likely with the exception of a handful of boats. Most of the Degaussing cables run along top of the port holes.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:15 am 
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An addition to your 1/700 list

Tamiya WW II Japanese Navy auxiliary naval vessels, type 13.
Kobe Hiryu, type 4, discontinued, occasionally on offer on ebay.

Berend


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:27 pm 
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redoctober27 wrote:
I've been researching this class as well as I'm building Ch-46 and CH-53 with took part in Ormoc bay attempted landing in November 1944. As Far as Dan and I can see , we havnt been able to find evidence of the Degaussing cables like the one on the Rainbow model 1/350 cover photo . My personal guess it that most likely with the exception of a handful of boats. Most of the Degaussing cables run along top of the port holes.


I have found one photo of a No.13-class IJN Sub-chaser with the degaussing cable like in the Rainbow kit:

Image

And even this photo shows an error in the Rainbow kit's degaussing cable, in that the cable at the bow runs in a straight line from the bow, angled upwards to over the anchor, level with the sheer-line only over the anchor, and then angled down to run underneath the portholes.

Where the PE in the kit has a very short angle upwards to the sheer line immediately at the bow, following the sheer line back to behind the anchor (which looks to be set too far back in the Rainbow kit), and then dropping down below the portholes.

But most of them (regardless of class) seem to run above the portholes in a straight line from stem to stern, with only a slight "dip" at the bow, as in this No.13-class Sub-chaser:

Image

Also shown in this photo of a No.28-class, with the degaussing cable running as both you and Dan describe (and the No.28-class was just a modification of the No.13-class that preceded it):

Image

The Five Star kit for the 1/700 No.4-class has no PE for a degaussing cable, but I have found one photo of this class that looks like it might have a degaussing cable along the top of the hull, following the sheer-line.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Also....

It looks like the "No.28-class" is not completely one class.

The No.28-class Sub-chasers are supposed to be just an "improved" No.13-class, as described on Combined Fleet:

CH-28s were an improved design based on the CH-13 class design. From Sep '44, most of the surviving units of the class were rearmed with triple-mount 25-mm Type 96AA guns and were fitted with Type 22 radars.





Yet the images of Sub-Chaser No.51 appear to be closer to the No.4-class Sub-Chaser, with the low bridge:

Image

The position of the stack is lower and further back than in earlier units of the class, and the stern appears to be longer as well.

Compare to Sub-Chaser No.30:

Image

If you look at the height of the people standing on the stern in the first shot (although very small, and low quality, you can made out some members of the crew on the stern), and then compare them to the height of the bridge (and any hatches that would be on the bridge)...

And then compare that to the height of the hatches and bridge on the No.30 Sub-Chaser (both supposedly No.28-class), then you can see a marked difference in the class.

Also.... If you look at the models available:

Five Star 1/700 Sub-Chaser No.51 (as in the photo):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Five-Star-1-700 ... SwCGVYATEH

Image

Compared to Rainbow 1/700 Sub-chaser No.28 (Which appears as Sub-Chaser No.30 above):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rainbow-Resin-k ... SwHsRYCRzA

Image

There is OBVIOUSLY a marked difference between the hull and superstructure of the two ships, which are supposed to be of the same "class" (as described on Combined Fleet, at the beginning of the post)

Other images of No.28-class Sub-Chasers appear to be nearly identical to the No.13-class as well (This is already a crowded post, so I am not going to clutter it further with the remaining examples of No.28-class Sub-chasers, when other posts already contain some).


Does anyone have any clue as to why Sub-Chaser No.51 appears to be so different from the rest of the No.28-class?

And does anyone know if other, later ships in the "No.28-class" were similar to SC No.51?

Or how many might be if there were, and what gave rise to this difference (different yards building different ships, and a lazy IJN in keeping track of distinctions between the classes)?


MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:06 pm 
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With regard to the No.51 Sub-Chaser.

It looks like at the very least Sub-Chaser No.58 was back to the "Improved No.13" appearance:

Image

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:30 pm 
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I have a lot of blurry images of the Early-war IJN Depth Charge Racks that sit along the center-line of the ship.

But the way that the PE parts look.... It looks like the racks could only hold 4 or 5 depth charges in the upper section of the rack.... And I figure that they would store more in the bottom of the rack, but can't find anything that shows HOW they would store them there.

I am trying to build the depth charge racks for my 1/700 IJN Sub-chasers (those are insane kits with the number of PE parts that they have smaller than 1mm in size).

But I want to have depth charges in them (I have a PE kit for a few hundred IJN depth charges for the Sub-chasers and my IJN DDs). Putting the depth charges in the upper sections isn't hard to figure out.

But could someone please help me find out what they did to have more than 8 or 10 depth charges on a ship?

That doesn't seem like it would be enough depth charges to threaten a submarine very effectively (Maybe that is why Japanese Sub-chasers and DDs were so ineffective?).

Also....

I know that prior to the War, the IJN would have depth charges on little stands on the edge of the deck at the stern of the ship (something like 6 to 8 depth charges, 3 to 4 on each side).

And that early in the war they changed to having a single set of rails on some ships that the depth charges would be rolled off the stern.

Where did the depth charges for the roll-off rails stay prior to being rolled off?

Were they just strapped to those rails in the open?

I ask because the Sub-chaser No.13-class shows that single set of rails along the center-line for 1941 - 1942/43, when they put two depth charge racks on the stern (like USN roll-off racks), and I am building this thing for a 1942 outfit.

And because this (tiny) photo looks like there are depth charges lined up on those rails:

Image

And, although this is a No.28-class IJN Sub-chaser, it too shows what looks to be depth charges simply laying on the rails at the back of the ship (everything that I can find says that the No.28-class Sub-chasers were just a modification of the No.13-class Sub-chasers)

Image

And the center-line racks are still not clear as to how they are loaded with depth charges (is it "depth charge" or "depth-charge?"). So still no help there in what to do about putting depth charges in the lower section.

Also, the Sub-chaser No.4-class doesn't seem to have any stern-racks at all in the Early-war, just the two center-racks with Y-guns.

And the No.1-class seems to have had the stern roll-off racks (that look more like USN depth charge racks) added fairly early on. But I can find nothing about when, or what they had prior to the more "normal" looking depth charge racks.

Did they have the same center-line rails at the stern, along with the center-line rack (which seems to be "Singular" center-line rack on the No.1-class, along with a single Y-gun)?

Or did they have a second center-line rack as well, prior to the mounting of the twin stern roll-off racks?

Is information on IJN Sub-chasers really that sparse?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:44 am 
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Hi Matthew,

I think you are confusing the type 51 class sub chasers no 51, no 52 an no 53 with the type 28 class subchasers no 51, no. 52 and no. 53.
The type 51 class sub chasers were built prewar. The class was renamed in type 251 in 1943 and the ships are renumbered in no 251, no. 252 and no. 253. Thereafter the type 28 class sub chasers no. 51. no. 52 and no. 53 were built.

Another edition for your 1/700 list.

Ingenuity Model pe set for sub chaser type 13 class

Regards,

Berend


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:01 am 
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berend wrote:
Hi Matthew,

I think you are confusing the type 51 class sub chasers no 51, no 52 an no 53 with the type 28 class subchasers no 51, no. 52 and no. 53.
The type 51 class sub chasers were built prewar. The class was renamed in type 251 in 1943 and the ships are renumbered in no 251, no. 252 and no. 253. Thereafter the type 28 class sub chasers no. 51. no. 52 and no. 53 were built.

Another edition for your 1/700 list.

Ingenuity Model pe set for sub chaser type 13 class

Regards,

Berend


That would explain it.

The Combined Fleet page doesn't cover those.

I'll need to edit the original post to reflect the changes.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:59 am 
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I'm not clear on what you are asking for, Matthew. Are you seeking pics of the racks that sit athwartships (perpendicular to the axis of the ship) like on the DDs in early war, or a lengthwise rack down the middle, which was more typical of late war subchasers?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:56 am 
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Dan K wrote:
I'm not clear on what you are asking for, Matthew. Are you seeking pics of the racks that sit athwartships (perpendicular to the axis of the ship) like on the DDs in early war, or a lengthwise rack down the middle, which was more typical of late war subchasers?


Sort of both, plus another rack that is said to be on some of the sub-chasers for the "Early-Type." on the No.13-class.

The "Athwartship racks" (which usually sit in the centerline of the ship, perpendicular to the axis) I am asking about why they have that big open space underneath where it looks like the racks hold the Depth Charges on the upper-level of the rack (roughly level with the top of the Y-Guns).

They look roughly like this:

Image

Did they only carry depth charges in the upper part of the rack, as this shows, and the bottom was just a big empty-space? Or were there more depth charges underneath?

I ask because it looks like they would only be able to carry about 8 - 12 Depth Charger in the pair of these racks on most Sub-Chasers.... And that would give them 2 - 3 attacks before the racks were empty.

The other depth charge "structure" I am asking about is what appears to be on the Center-line on the stern.

In this image for the Type No.4 Sub-Chaser, it includes options for both "Early-war" and for "Later-war" for many components.

Image

For the Later-war, the main image for the ship shows TWO Depth Charge Roll-off Racks (enclosed in a metal cage) on the stern.

Yet in the lower-right of the photo, it has a little box that says "Depth Charge Rail for Early-Type" (Part A9).

And I cannot find a photo online of the Rainbow Models No.13 Sub-Chaser, but it also gives an option for an "Early-War" outfit that shows a single, open "Rail" on the stern at the Center-line, rather than the pair of Roll-off Racks seen in the above photo for the No.4 Type "Later-War" outfit.

The "types of Racks that sit on the Center-line next to the Y-Guns are also visible in the photo for the No.4 class (Parts A11).

What I am looking for is how did the Depth Charges get stored on each of these types?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:14 pm 
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In your photo of the brass set, could the parts marked as A18 be deck storage for extra depth charges? I have only seen depth charges in the upper rack of the athwartship racks. The framing isn't conducive to lower level storage.

As a comparison, what is the storage situation on American destroyers? They also only have stern racks with occasional side racks. Do they have additional stowage anywhere else?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Depth charges were only stored in the upper level of the athwartships style racks. Storage on the rolloff racks at the stern was much like western ships, pretty much as many would fit.

I can't speak for the subchasers, but typically, any ship that carried depth charges also had a magazine for them. It's likely that the subchasers had something like a magazine for additional storage. In most case, the racks also have small, moveable, collapsible davits attached, to help with loading.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:14 am 
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Mike C wrote:
In your photo of the brass set, could the parts marked as A18 be deck storage for extra depth charges? I have only seen depth charges in the upper rack of the athwartship racks. The framing isn't conducive to lower level storage.

As a comparison, what is the storage situation on American destroyers? They also only have stern racks with occasional side racks. Do they have additional stowage anywhere else?



I had thought the same thing about those boxes, because they are nearly exactly the size that the little brass depth charges that come with the kit would fit in.

But about the center-line rails on the stern....

In one of the photos I posted above, I could swear that they look ready to roll off the stern.

Especially since there is no reading after of them.

The railing pieces they have for the Center-rails on both the Early-war No.4-class and the Early-war No.13-class end right at the edge of the center-line rails, with a gap where they would roll-off depth charges if they did.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:27 pm 
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I figure that I should post this here so that anyone building one of the Rainbow Sub-Chaser No.13-class or No.28-class would know where part B44 is supposed to go (assuming that an answer is found).

Attachment:
Sub-Chaser No.13 Mast.jpg
Sub-Chaser No.13 Mast.jpg [ 42.73 KiB | Viewed 3183 times ]


The part looks to be signal lights, or something.

And they attach either to the side of the mast, or the rear of the mast.

On the side, it looks as if they would go next to the ladder on the mast.

On the Aft of the Mast, it looks like it would go in the center, orthogonal to the beam of the ship (sticking off the back of the mast).

Any help, please?

Would these have been moved or deleted during the War?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Likely centred between the cross bars pointed up & down as shown in the sketch.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:14 pm 
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JCRAY wrote:
Likely centred between the cross bars pointed up & down as shown in the sketch.


I could not tell if it was centered on the aft of the mast (up and down), or if it was on the side next to the ladder, given the perspective.

Now I have to figure out the stays on the mast.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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