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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Hi to everybody here !!

I'm new in this forum and I would like to tell you something of me, just to introduce myself.

My name i JP (sorry... this is my nickname the short form of my name John Paul) , I'm 45 and I live in Italy.
Since less or more 20 years, I 'm in ship modeling and except for first time, I'm working on scratchbuilt.
I have started with sails vessels, but since 6 or 7 years I'm focusing on sail-to-steam transition period, expecially around 1860 and I'm very interested in Civil War vessels and ironclads.

In the last years I have build model of USS Cairo in 1:100 scale, a model of CSS Stonewall (in her japanese life as Kotetsu) in 1:75 scale and actually I'm working on a model of USS Roanoke (when she was transformed in a triple turret ironclad) in 1:100 scale.

I'm very happy to be here and I'm really excited to share with you information and suggests about ironclads.

I would just add few pics of some of my models of Kotetsu, the USS Cairo, the SMS Sachsen (a german ironclad corvette of 1877) and RN Terribile (the first italian ironclad in 1861, here when she was used as Gunnery SchoolShip in 1898)

NOW THE QUESTION :
I would ask you also a question, about the turret monitors' roof (coming from Ericsson' design)
Making the three turret of my Roanoke, I'm not sure about the roof coverage : was it made by wooden beams or by iron barrels? Looking at the Monitor turret is seems to be covered by iron barrels one very close each others, but I'm not sure that in the following monitors the same coverage was used.

Someone could kindly give me an idea about?

Thanks in advance

JP
Ah.. sorry for by so bad english !!!


Attachments:
File comment: The IJN Kotetsu, ex-CSS Stonewall
Kotetsu - 26A.JPG
Kotetsu - 26A.JPG [ 134.77 KiB | Viewed 2711 times ]
File comment: The river Gunboat USS Cairo - the model is not yet finished
Cairo-Model-Jp-102-compressa.JPG
Cairo-Model-Jp-102-compressa.JPG [ 131.54 KiB | Viewed 2699 times ]
File comment: The german ironclad corvette SMS Sachsen - 1877
Sachsen-439a compressa.JPG
Sachsen-439a compressa.JPG [ 134.74 KiB | Viewed 2706 times ]
File comment: The RN (Regia Nave) TERRIBILE - 1861 - the first Italian Kingdom ironclad
Figura 32-compressa.JPG
Figura 32-compressa.JPG [ 134.51 KiB | Viewed 2706 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Hello JP. Nice to make your aquaintance & thanks for sharing those photos of your excellent models. :thumbs_up_1: CSS Stonewall (Kotesu) has always been a favorite of mine & one I would like to build for RC one of these days.

Here are a few reference illustrations that might be of help showing the types of turret roof used on the Ericsson monitors. The original Monitor used iron rail for overhead protection while perforated plate decking was used on Passaic class onwards.

Am sure that Devin, Rusty & others have much better reference material that can assist or correct any misunderstanding I may have.

Regards,

Chuck

Image
Speedline Models' Monitor turret

Image
Turret roof plate used on Passaic class onwards

Image
Montauk (Passaic class) turret interior

Image
Montauk (Passaic class) cross section

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:00 am 
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Hello, Chuck

thanks for your kind words about my models.

And many thanks about the pic and the drawings you've shared with me.

Thinking to the period since the Monitor was launched, the firts monitors of Passaic class were built after the Monitor (obiously), in 1862 and than before the rebuilding of the Roanoke (completed in April 1863 if I'm not mistaking).

So, it could be possible that the perforated roof could be used also on Roanoke, modified after the first Passaic monitors... what do you think about ?

Another question to all the monitor' lovers : what about the access to the conning tower? In all the drawings I have seen, nothing indicates how people could enter inside it... so the natural question is : from where they could access to the ship wheel location?

From below? (this means that the floor should be partially opened but there is no sign of any stair to such above location)

Or from a doorway located in the conning tower iron wall? (It seems to be a right solution thinking that men could raise over the turret roof from one of the two lateral passages on the roof and from there enter in the conning tower)

Or directly from conning tower roof? (but in this case a sign of an open door should be indicated ....and above on some conning towers there are strange "poles" that could be periscopes (as I have seen in one drawing on a book)

This is something that is still unknown to me and I would like to know what do you think about.

Thanks again for your kind help and suggest
greetings

JP

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:25 am 
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Chuck,

What you show on the Monitor's roof is what I would go with. I have a book that has images of the original Monitor drawings, and from that I think the perforated plates are a good bet. Well, let me say that I'm willing to bet that's how the Passaic and Canonicus class were done, the Monitor may very well have been just the railroad iron for a roof. It's been a while since I've looked at the Mariner's Museum work, but they had just started excavating the top of the turret a year or so ago and expected to be able to answer that question.

JP, access to the conning tower in the Passaic class was indeed through a hatch in the bottom of the conning tower. The research I did during the build of my USS Weehawken showed that the turret might have had to be facing directly forward for the bottom of the pilot house and the top of the turret opening to line up and allow men to pass through it, but that does not make sense for the Canonicus class, as when the Tecumseh sank one or two men escaped down and out of the pilot house as she went under, but surveys of the wreck show the turret still trained to port.

One question about the pilot houses I've never been able to figure out is the flag pole mounted atop it. They used it to signal during battle, but I'm not sure how they placed the flags on it from inside the pilot house. The house had a domed, perforated roof, so maybe one of the holes was just big enough to reach through and run up a flag.

Great models by the way. I'm working on a 1/96th scale USS Carondelet (City Class) as my first ever scratch build.

-Devin

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:37 pm 
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Hi, Devin
Hi Chuck

thanks for your suggests abut the opening in the conning tower.
In my model I think I'll add a vertical stair between the two guns, to reach the roof of the turret (and the floor of conning tower).. Bu at the same time I was thinking that while the turret is revolving, the conning tower is stopped and shoule be fidex always in the same position... isn't so? As far as I know in "second generation" Ericsson' turrets the above command post (or conning tower) was always not rotating.... is it right, about your experience?

So, usually the roof of such command posts were filled by holes in the iron coverage?
Interesting way to have air and light.... and it could be that an holes should be larger than others to raise the flag... but not on Roanoke I think...and I want to explain why.

Infact, about the poles over the conning towers : on many drawings (and just one pic) of the USS Roanoke, on the roof of the last turret (toward the stern) there is an high pole... but it's located over the only turret without a conning tower.

Over the first two turrets, instead there are a couple of "things" that do not seem poles for flags, but as far as I know, the object on the middle tower could be a periscope, wile I can't identify in the right way the one on the first turret.

here some drawings I've collected from different sources that could give you a better idea of what I mean :-)

Any suggest based on your experience?

Thanks for your kind answer

cheers

JP


Attachments:
roanoke1h.jpg
roanoke1h.jpg [ 89.16 KiB | Viewed 2696 times ]
roanoke1f.jpg
roanoke1f.jpg [ 65.1 KiB | Viewed 2699 times ]
roanoke1d.jpg
roanoke1d.jpg [ 48.48 KiB | Viewed 2707 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:49 pm 
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JP,

Yes, the conning tower was fixed. It rested on that massive column that ran through the center of the turret and it did not rotate.

Some of the monitors did indeed have periscopes out of the top of the turret or the pilot house. There are some photos of the Camanche post-war that show her with a massive compass housing mounted above the pilot house: the ships had so much iron in them that the only way they could get good compass readings was to put the thing up and out of the ship.

-Devin

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:19 am 
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JP,

Glad to be of assistance for what I could offer. Devin, among others here, are the experts when it comes to nailing down the details. :thumbs_up_1:

I'll be looking forward to seeing your Roanoke!

Chuck

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Hi, Chuck
Hi Devin

meny thanks for all your suggests...
in last weekend I have modeled the roofs of the two forward turrets, and looking at the schema you've shared with me, I made it by plasticard, pierced from a network of holes to give air and light to the interiors

Because I have choosen to model in a similar way the two fore turrests, the last I have left with the roof made by wood

For the plasticard roof I have cut a couple of round disks in 0,5 mm. thick plasticard, and I have traced on it a grid of 2x2 mm square at the intersection of each I have punched a little hole.

Suche holes were enlarged by a drill point and on the unders side of the roof I have glued some "U" strips of thin plasticard.

After made all holes, with the same "u" shaped plasticard I have rounded the roof to make a ring alla around that was he same diameter of the below turret.

Here I'm attaching some pics of the roof and the conning tower and a pic of the roanoke with turrets and the interior structure of one of them.

I hope you'll like how my Roanoke is growing :-)

have a nice time
ciao
JP


Attachments:
Roanoke-069-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-069-compressa.JPG [ 137.66 KiB | Viewed 1622 times ]
Roanoke-076-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-076-compressa.JPG [ 123.75 KiB | Viewed 1616 times ]
Roanoke-086-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-086-compressa.JPG [ 137.36 KiB | Viewed 1615 times ]
Roanoke-101-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-101-compressa.JPG [ 129.77 KiB | Viewed 1616 times ]
Roanoke-096-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-096-compressa.JPG [ 134.55 KiB | Viewed 1617 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:31 pm 
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Excellent work, JP! :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:32 pm 
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JP,

That is some impressive work. Please keep the photos coming.

-Devin

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:49 am 
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hi, Chuck
Hi, Devin

thanks for your kind words, but be aware that there are a lot of mistakes in my work :-)

Just one thing I've discovered looking at the section of the Monitor "John Ericsson" in the book "Steam, Steel & Shellfire" on the "strange thing" above the conning tower.

At first look it seemed me to be e periscope, but after your indication, I had a better look of the picture and I have discovered that it's a "coloumn" for the compass.

In the section, is visible that the magnetic compass is on top of such "pole" is visible from the inside of the conning tower by a "mirror" mechanism that acts like a periscope, in the way that the pilot, inside the conning tower, looking on a mirror positioned above his head, can see the compass that is located about 6 feet above the roof.

So, in my model I have simulated this mechanism (not working, obviously) in the conning tower, that can be seen just opening the roof of the tower.

When I'll take some pics of this, Ipll share them with you

have a nice time
Ciao
JP

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:22 am 
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JP,

Here's the photo I have. I can't remember where I downloaded it from. This is Camanche post-war; they shipped her to San Francisco in pieces and put her together after the war, so she has some features that the other Passaic classes did not have (like recessed rivets/bolts on the turret and hull sides).

-Devin


Attachments:
89df.jpg
89df.jpg [ 37.16 KiB | Viewed 1542 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:15 am 
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Hi Devin

thanks for the pic you have posted for me.
Indeed this shiuld be a periscope, because there are no opening in the conning tower.
But I think that for the Roanoke, the "thing" is not a periscope for view outside, but an inside periscope to see the compass put inside the top of the pole.

In any case, I have just work a bit on the Roanoke, assembling and painting the turret (still without guns.. the next step do to), the conning towers and the funnel.

I have also weathered a bit (I think I could make it better) the ironworks, tring to simulate a diffuse rust all around (when the Roanoke was not more used in active service).

Here some pics of the actual status of the model.

Have a nice time
ciao
JP


Attachments:
Roanoke-127-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-127-compressa.JPG [ 125.45 KiB | Viewed 1537 times ]
Roanoke-120-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-120-compressa.JPG [ 135.29 KiB | Viewed 1539 times ]
Roanoke-122-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-122-compressa.JPG [ 135.47 KiB | Viewed 1535 times ]
Roanoke-114-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-114-compressa.JPG [ 141.47 KiB | Viewed 1536 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:40 pm 
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How do the Verlinden 1/200 waterline kits compare in detail to the resin offerings.

Have also heard/seen of a company which also include wood bits in their kits...Ironclad models I think they are called they are 1/192.

How do these stack up?

Do CW ironclads appear better as waterline kits?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:56 pm 
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I've built Verlinden's Atlanta and made a review of it, if that helps:

Review: http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... eview.html

Built up: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

Note that the gunport arrangement is incorrect, as is the amount of guns protruding from the house - one gun apparently shared the three end slots.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Felix,

The Verlinden kits are resin and very well cast. As Timmy said there are issues with the Atlanta (easy enough to fix, I filled in the incorrect port on my kit very easily), but otherwise it's fairly accurate and a beautiful kit. The other kits have problems as well, the Monitor has late style pilot house but early style stacks, the Chicora has the pilot house on the wrong end of the casemate (not terrible to remedy, move the anchors to the opposite end of the hull!). I hear the Virginia has issues but I'm not sure what; the Keokuk looks fairly accurate from what we know of that ship and from the photos of the kit. The only other kit I think they did is the CSS Nashville, and no one really knows what that ship looked like, so accuracy is relative. I wish Verlinden would do more of those kits.

As to whether the Civil War ships look better waterline or full hull, that's your call. I built the large scale monitor of mine full hull as there isn't much there if you cut her off at the water's edge. When at some point in the future I build a USS New Ironsides, though, she'll be waterline because that ship just looks plain dumpy as full hull.

-Devin

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Hi to everybody here !!

Just to share with you the actual status of the model of USS Roanoke, with near all superstructure done.. still missing cranes for boats and anchors, rudder and propeller, flags and...surely... guns!!!

I have to build the guns to put inside the iroclad turrets and so, close all the turrets.

so, I attach pics of the Roanoke at the last week's status.

I think I'll complete the model for February, 2010, ready for a local modelship contest near Rome, in the old town of Civitavecchia.

I hope you'll like the model and feel free to give me every suggest or critics you want to tell me !

Ciao

Jp


Attachments:
Roanoke-128-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-128-compressa.JPG [ 128.33 KiB | Viewed 1628 times ]
Roanoke-131-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-131-compressa.JPG [ 142.38 KiB | Viewed 1624 times ]
Roanoke-134-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-134-compressa.JPG [ 128.72 KiB | Viewed 1622 times ]
Roanoke-140-compressa.JPG
Roanoke-140-compressa.JPG [ 133.24 KiB | Viewed 1621 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:50 pm 
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JP,

She looks great!

-Devin

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:33 am 
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Does anyone happen to know of a Mr. Bob Hill who did some amazing CAD drawings of the USS Cairo? I got a hold of the digital files through a now defunct Yahoo group. I would like to contact Mr. Hill and ask a few questions.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:16 pm 
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I know the plans you have Devin, they were sent to me by a friend. I'll ask him and see if he knows how to contact Mr. Hill. It's a bit of a long shot, but we'll see...

Beautiful Roanoke JP! I am curious, what references are you using? I am currently designing a paper model of this ship, but I don't feel comfortable releasing it commercially until I have some better references. At the moment, the only references I have are some low quality images I pulled from Navsource. I'd really love some recommendations for better material. Thanks!

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