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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:23 pm 
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DAVIDWAPLES:

Thanks for the info.

For what it's worth, I got an email ad from a dealer which included the following about a Warriors 1/35 PT boat crew set:

WARRIORS 9301 35628 PT BOAT CREW SET 1:35 $23.98 $17.27


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:07 am 
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davidwaples wrote:
No news on figures. I would highly suggest that you send Italeri a message from their web site and let them know that you're interested in a 109 crew set. Their marketing department calls the shots and they listen to us. Also let them know what you would like to see. For example I suggested to them that the crews be mostly undressed and skinny like most south pacific PT crews were generally dressed... or not dressed.

Italeri did release details on their update set and you can see it at their web site. They should be showing up in stores in the next 30 days or so I would imagine. No idea about price yet. Here is what is included in the kit.

1. SO Radar. The set includes two types of mast and dome which is a very nice touch. Also included is the mast rest.
2. 40mm Bofors Gun. A complete 40mm Bofors to replace the 20mm on the stern if you choose.
3. 20mm backdate. Included are a replacement mount, gun, ammo cans, and armor shield if you wish to backdate a 103 class boat to how she came out of the Elco plant.
4. Life floats. 2 are included in the set.
5. Anchor. A correct anchor is included which will work on either boat.
6. Life Raft/Float. A correctly shaped earlier style life boat.
7. Extra depth charges. 4 are included in the set.
8. Mk VIII and Mk. XIII torpedoes. 1 each.
9. Photoetch set including day cabin joining plates.

If you wish to model a 103 class boat with roll off torpedoes this will not get you there. The set does not include roll off racks. So you're going to have to invest in an aftermarket set such as Lion Roar or Royal Model, or heaven forbid... rob your 596 kit of parts. Probably the nicest touch was the addition of the day cabin joining plates on the photoetch fret. This is an obscure detail that would otherwise go missed by most modelers. However Italeri listened to us and included them in the kit. I'll let the following photos speak for themselves. The instruction pages will show you exactly what you're getting. You can also view these on the Italeri web site included with their most recent release.

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While it is a great thing that Italeri did in creating this conversion set, I feel a bit let down by it. First, they only give you one torpedo of each type. How about four, or at least maybe two of each. To do an upgraded 103 class boat you still will need four sets to get a full torpedo complement, AND still no roll off racks! What were they thinking? So now you need to plunk down $100 bucks to get a Royal brass set, which gives you most of the parts for four racks and the rest, you must scratch build. Then, no late war 20mm tripod mount. Instead, you get the same one they have in the kit (WTF?). It would have been nice to see a 37mm as well, maybe a M4 version. I guess half a loaf is better than none, but by the time you have to buy/build all the extra things they failed to include, you might as well buy another PT-596 kit just to strip for parts if doing a late war 103 class boat. It would be cheaper than four of these plus a Royal kit and a bunch of sheet styrene.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:50 am 
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I have yet to find an "aftermarket set" by a manufacturer that wasn't wildly disappointing. I wish most of them wouldn't bother.
Or rather, I wish they'd step up and show the same passion for them that our favorites do.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:46 am 
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I need help with the camouflage scheme on a late model Elco 80 in 31/20L. What would the interior of the bridge be painted? The inner facing of the bridge door to the chart house? Would it be deck green or one of the exterior color? Thanks.
Walt Haynes


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:54 am 
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Green 3

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Thanks, Tracy


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:59 am 
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The interior doors were originally painted white to match the rest of the boat interior. I've seen photos showing them both ways. As you can see in this photo the crew painted the door interior to match the camo scheme. You can see behind the crewman coming out of the chart house a white interior with red at the top. I would imagine most crews in theatre painted their door interiors to match their exteriors.

Also note the floor mat. remember those old rubber door mats that were made up of rectangular shaped pieces of rubber wired together? That's what's under foot. Not the wood grate as shown on the Italeri kit. Just an observation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:40 pm 
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Got any late-war photos with those mats David? As far as far as I've seen they were largely removed from capital ships at least by 1942 for the fire concerns. Perhaps all the surplus ones were given to the wooden, gasoline powered PT boats, but I'm also wondering if your photos are earlier when there was a greater likelihood they were still in use.

I have a set of photos of PT-588 at the Elco yard and the door to the charthouse is painted in the same camouflage colors as the rest of the cockpit, which is the darker of the greens.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:35 pm 
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As far as the mats go note that the boats have roll off torpedoes so they are likely late war. Certainly after mid 1943. Probably later. Pictures of the helm area floors are very rare which is why I like this shot so much. I was surprised when I was told that the boats had those old rubber floor mats. Then I found this photo. But.. who really knows for sure.

What I enjoy about PT's is that the crews were very creative and each boat has it's own personality. Maybe there's something documented that shows the change order to start painting the door interiors something other than white. Lessons learned in the field translated into factory changes. If i were modeling the door open I would probably paint it the same as the exterior color.

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:46 pm 
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I have a stalled PT-596 build that has the door open - it'll be camouflaged. Even if the door itself wasn't visible from 90% of the outside "viewers," I would think that a white door's light reflectance would be a concern, even when the chart house ran red lights.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:08 pm 
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Thanks for the info.. door will be green. Next question. Was the 40mm and 37mm ammo marked at the tips for "tracer" rounds or HE? Thanks again for the help.
Walt Haynes


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:24 am 
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I checked John Lampert and Al Ross' book "Allied Costal Forces". They list ammo used on these boats as AA, AP, or T. Looking at black and white photos I don't see any evidence of mixing rounds. My friend Jerry Beasley collects 40mm ammo. Let me see if he can be of help.
Dave


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:23 pm 
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According to http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_37mm-56_m4.htm
37mm ammo came as HE or AP and it does not appear that PT's used AP.

According to http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_4cm-56_mk12.htm
40mm ammo used by the US was either HE or AP.

As a note, there is an Army adage about tracer ammunition, "Tracers work in both directions." In other words, if you use tracers against an opponent, you can see exactly where your rounds are going and your opponent can see exactly where they are coming from. To my mind, that might not be a good idea in night ops on a PT.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Thanks, guys.
Walt


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:26 pm 
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I guess what I'm really asking is : were the tips of the bullets colored in any way?
Walt Haynes


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:55 pm 
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The USN primarily used 40mm to protect capital ships from air attack. Remember that PT's primary role was barge busting so Armor Piercing rounds would be a very good choice for PT's. They want to put a high concentration of fire on a small target. The video I've seen of PT's firing weapons at night clearly show the use of tracers. In this picture the crew has two clips of ammo with the tell tale white tracer bands on every round.

As far as what color to paint I would imagine a dark green or dark gray with and without tracer bands. If you do a web search you can find lots of information about 40mm rounds. I trust Al Ross' information.
Dave

PS. Checking with my ammo expert buddies on the ptboatsforum.com web site

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:09 pm 
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Jerry Gilmartin who volunteers on PT-658 in Portland provided this information...

"Hi David,
I looked in the Tactical Orders and Doctrine book and in the Instruction booklet called "Know your PT Boat". While it is talking about the 37mm cannon, it may be similar.

"16. Both AP and HE have tracer. Good results have been had with a ratio of 1 AP and 3 HE.

40-mm Gun.-This gun is best operated with 4 men but 3 men can do a good job. It is a wonderful gun for both AA and surface fire. It seldom jams. The prime point to remember is load the shells at the proper angle- nose canted downward. "

Of course, like Jack says, they never went by the book at the war zone, if they could even find a book or a Tech Manual, they just did what they could do with what was available.
Jerry"


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:36 pm 
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Received some additional photos and information from Jerry Beasley and Jerry Gilmartin. Both of whom know far more about this subject than me. :thumbs_up_1:

From Jerry Beasley...
Great questions and some good follow up on tracers and the make up of individual clips. While I'm a PT modeler I also got bit by the ammo bug and have been a serious collector of .30 cal, .45 cal, .50 cal, 20mm, 37 mm and 40mm ammo for the past 10 years or so. It started as all the ammo carried on a PT boat but my wife drew the line at depth charges and torpedoes - I am however always on the lookout for a 5" rocket if anyone (hint: Jerry G) knows where one might ever be available. I'm also involved with restoration of military aircraft which carries over in to the full restoration on the ammo.

I have never posted a photo on the forum so Dave Waples has agreed to post them for me.

In my experience I have never seen a mixed clip of 40mm ammo used in an operational weapon, whether used in ground vehicles such as the M-41 Duster, shipboard usage or airborne platforms such as the Specter gun ships. As reference each of the ammo boxes or cans that I have in my collection or referenced in photo sources have the ammo type and nomenclature marked on the outside of the container and in my experience are limited to a single ammo type.

First I included a chart of the 40mm rounds used in WWII by the US Navy - this was put together by a close friend and fellow collector and he gave me permission to publish in the forum and for it to be used by any of the forum members in you would like - I am going to do a new one that will show all the proper nomenclature that should be painted on each projectile - the type of round is on one side and the lot information is stenciled on the opposite side.

As to Murphy's Laws of Combat that "tracers work both ways" - very true, but you will see reference to a "dark" or "dim" tracer as well as a delayed ignition tracer. While a lot has been written I think in the end they are really all the same animal. The problem especially with large caliber tracers is that when they ignite as fired they can destroy the gun crews night vision, and they draw a straight line from the target right back to the barrel of the gun. The dark or delayed ignition tracer has a very slow burning ignition train that allows the projectile to travel several hundred yards from the barrel before igniting the tracer element. The crew maintains their night vision and the individuals on the receiving of the incoming rounds can only guess at where the shooters are located.

As to the sequencing in the 37mm cannon, I suppose a lot would depend on the individual target type being engaged. There are a number of good pictures of sequencing in the airborne version of the 37mm, but I was able to find one good photo from what appears to be an operational WWII PT boat. It is in black and white but with the color differentiation as well as the cartridge length it is clearly sequenced HE/AP/AP/AP/HE/AP/AP/AP.
40mm Identification Chart - USN
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Examples of 40mm projectiles
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Examples of 37mm on USS Alaska
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PT-305 40mm restoration. Nice work on the 40mm ammo
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37mm Load Out
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Greetings,

I would like to seek some help from the PT boat experts and fellow modelers on this forum while building the new Merit 1/48th scale Elco '80 PT boat. While I have been an aircraft modeler for many years, my forays into ships/boats is limited to a commission build of the old Monogram/Revell(?) Swift boat in the late '90s and a half-built Tamiya 1/350th Fletcher that is stuck on the Shelf of Doom. Also, please forgive this landlubber in advance for my lack of knowledge regarding the terminology of all things nautical, as I don't mean to offend anyone.

I have read/skimmed this 20 page thread several times over the last few weeks, as well as other internet based websites and the Squadron Walk-Around on the Elco, in a somewhat successful attempt to answer some but not all of my questions. If I may, I would like to pose a few questions to the members of this forum for your advice:

First question: While I understand that the cockpit of a late war boat will be painted in the appropriate camouflage color, would the wooden benches that line the bulkheads of the cockpit and adjacent areas also be painted in the camouflage color, or would they be a varnished natural wood color, as I have seen on several builds of the big Italeri boat? It doesn't make sense to me that they would go to the trouble of painting the cockpit in the camouflage color and then leave the benches in a natural wood color.

Second question: Would the interior of the gun tubs/turrets be painted in the appropriate camouflage colors, or would they be some sort of Navy gray shade of paint/primer? I'm asking because I'm at the point of the build where I need to attach the structures to which the the gun tubs are attached to the deck, and I want to paint the interior of the tubs before I glue them to the deck. I realize that I am going to have to carefully think my way through the construction of the kit, and prepaint many of the areas as I go (such as the cockpit/helm and it's attendant details).

Thanks in advance for any help, advice and build suggestions

Jeff Newton
Simpsonville, South Carolina
U.S.A.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Paint instructions *in general* called for the interior of gun tubs to match the camouflage - it's a little unclear when you talk about pattern camouflage and on the larger ships it's inconsistent early on. I would say for the Merit late-war kit, paint the tub interiors one of the greens. I pulled the Bureau of Ships PT camouflage files at the National Archives a couple of years ago and there was nothing about the gun tub interiors, although I didn't pull and look through the boxes for all of the individual PTs and it's possible they could have said to paint 'em pink. I have a good series of shots of PT-588 fresh from the factory and can see part of the ammo can in the forward tub in one view. It's just a touch lighter than the darker color ("USN Green #3") but is definitely darker than the lighter "Green #2." Absolutely no shots of the bench, but I imagine it was camouflaged and not natural wood. I can see no reason why a crew would keep just piece natural wood when they were slopping camouflage paint over the rest of the boat.

Earlier boats that were painted in greens out in the field is anyone's guess - how diligent was the crew in a war zone with a cramped area hardly anyone would see? They were in dark or light grays before then, depending, so you've got your choices.

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