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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Thats very interesting...

EJFoeth wrote:
Also added a cable that is present on many RN warship's aftermost barbette; I've not been able to determine the use of this cable... its made from 0.08mm brass wire.


I haven't noticed this before.

On an aft barbette? It would make a handy place to store a towing cable that may need quick access... Is that what you think it was? A towing cable?

I dont suppose you have any photos of one anywhere you would share?

(I like stuff like this...! :cool_2: )

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Of course I have pics, lots of them :smallsmile: you see the cable on my battleships around the quarter deck barbette (so not on the Rodney's) and you find them on the early WWI ships too. I tried finding info in my seamans pocketbook but nothing there either.

Attachment:
cablemystery.jpg
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Top two are HMS Hood... note that in one image the cable wraps around the barbette twice and four times in the other. Norman Ough has this cable on some of his models.. a towing cable is the best explanation, also considering this event titled "Evolution "Prepare to take in tow" on board HMS PRINCE OF WALES."

Image
ON BOARD THE BATTLESHIP HMS PRINCE OF WALES. 20 APRIL 1941.. © IWM (A 3923)IWM Non Commercial Licence


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Excellent EJ!!!

First thoughts... so likely to change now you have pointed it out to me and I'm perhaps over-reacting with enthusiasm! :big_grin:

The top left with Hood... two wraps round the barbette... that looks like a later photo, (rangefinder end plates denote its not an early photo) and the blast bags are still canvas coloured and not painted in the 507B grey... So possibly during the period shortly before Denmark Straits when there was a weird mismatch of grey's (507A and 507B?) which seemed to be consolidated with 507B just a week or two before embarking? Agree?

The black 'trim' at the bottom of the barbette is in the right hand photo is interesting... but no sign of it at any other place in the photo... I would have thought it would have been in place all around the ship if it was there... so perhaps it was left as is during a repaint. It's clearly a different cable later on, and shorter... around half the length in fact!!

I think I am going to go with twice round the barbette and paint it when I airbrush the barbettes. Nice call out though... this is something to address early in the build :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:09 am 
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507B and 507A were exactly the same thing, with or without gloss enamel varnish added to the mix. They were both simply "Home Fleet Grey".

507B was slightly glossier in appearance and in some lights may appear slightly lighter or darker than the matt finished 507A. There was a degree of latitude in the tone of Home Fleet Grey (3% difference in Light Reflectance Value to be specific) and the dockyards and ships had their own mixes to get to Home Fleet Grey. Differences in tone on photographs are almost certainly down to differences in glossiness or differences between batches used.

507A and 507B were not amalgamated or 507B renamed 507A or anything like that. 507A and 507B were both Home Fleet Grey, but the use of enamel was ordered to be ceased for war rationing so glossy 507B simply stopped being used until after the war ended and the Royal Navy's priorities changed from war rationing back to wanting attractive glossy paints that tolerated use more readily and thus looked better for longer - which was why 507B was introduced in the first place after 1929.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:24 am 
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I applied this blueish AP507B to my model, a perfect Humbrol match for the WEM tin, which I understand is a bit too blue.... (pic is object in progress of being painted; needs a bit more demolishing, more detail, salt wash, smears, shadow lines etc...).

Attachment:
Paint_01.jpg
Paint_01.jpg [ 155.83 KiB | Viewed 838 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:38 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
507B and 507A were exactly the same thing, with or without gloss enamel varnish added to the mix. They were both simply "Home Fleet Grey".

507B was slightly glossier in appearance and in some lights may appear slightly lighter or darker than the matt finished 507A. There was a degree of latitude in the tone of Home Fleet Grey (3% difference in Light Reflectance Value to be specific) and the dockyards and ships had their own mixes to get to Home Fleet Grey. Differences in tone on photographs are almost certainly down to differences in glossiness or differences between batches used.

507A and 507B were not amalgamated or 507B renamed 507A or anything like that. 507A and 507B were both Home Fleet Grey, but the use of enamel was ordered to be ceased for war rationing so glossy 507B simply stopped being used until after the war ended and the Royal Navy's priorities changed from war rationing back to wanting attractive glossy paints that tolerated use more readily and thus looked better for longer - which was why 507B was introduced in the first place after 1929.


Thanks James... just as I thought this part of the build was going to be relatively easy!

I have quite a lot of the original WEM Colourcoats for 507A, 507B and 507C and there is quite a lot of difference in each in terms of colour.

The WEM 507A I have is a very dark grey and I have used that for steel decks as it appears very dark and fits with photos (and it was also called out in various texts and references - including all my Alan Raven stuff)

The WEM 507B is very much lighter and slightly bluish.. perhaps a little too blue, but doesn't at all look like a glossier version of 507A.

The WEM 507C is a very light bluish grey, again perhaps a bit too blue... and I have always thought it a little too dark, with 507C looking much much lighter in photos.

I had always trusted WEM paints to be pretty good in terms of colour accuracy, but it seems I have been somewhat naive here.

The picture EJ posted above is very similar to what I have done in the past... his metal deck surfaces look dark, what I would call 507A, and his superstructure verticals look a lot like my 507B, (although perhaps a tiny bit lighter and a little too blue?). EJ's colours certainly seem much close to what I had in mind. And although I know colour film from those days isnt really that reliable, seems much closer to the colour footage of Hood we have all seen.

I will be at Telford this weekend... I presume you will be there too? Do you have a colour swatch of your 507A and 507B that I could look at?

From what you are saying, the bare steel decks and the superstructure should all be the same colour, just a different amount of reflectivity, and at the time of sinking, should be just about identical as the glossy versions were unused by then - or have I got this wrong?

I hope so, because I think Hood would look very weird with the vast expanse of the steel deck being pretty much the same colour as the hull and superstructure... even as a base colour before weathering. And the overall impression would look extremely dark in comparison to photos, colour footage and other models I have seen if painted in the non-reflective 507A that I have!

I think I must have misunderstood your post... because the more I write this, the more I'm unsure that these were the same colours with different levels of reflectivity... either that or WEM got 507A and 507B completely wrong... as have many of my other references.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Bill Livingston wrote:
I will be at Telford this weekend... I presume you will be there too?


Yes, we're in Hall 2. Look for red balloons :)

Quote:
either that or WEM got 507A and 507B completely wrong... as have many of my other references.


Unfortunately there are some anomalies but it's not as bad as it sounds. Drop by and tell me who you are and I will share what I know so far.

We're actively working on research to make some corrections, but I can share what we have... :)

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Hello :wave_1:

always on the lookout for detail ... :thumbs_up_1: you are a reference for me
I like your work
cheers
Nicolas

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:06 pm 
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And vice versa Nicolas :thumbs_up_1: Every time my modeling goes inactive a few good posts bring me back...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Hi All

Hi Mr Livingstone, just to say that the horizontal metal decks had a different paint applied to them which came in various paint colours one of which was a dark grey.

Most WW2 images seem to show that metal decks, turret tops etc appear darker in tone than their adjacent Home Fleet grey painted structures so I wouldn't worry too much yet.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:23 pm 
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I had a very nice chat with Bill Livingstone twice today, and established that A) neither of us are capable of unseeing reference material and that B) we each suffer from children who think we are geeks :rolf_3:

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:38 am 
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I spent some time working on my model again, and by a some I mean a lot! I finished the deck scribing for the entire model which turned out to be the most time consuming modeling activity ever :smallsmile: Scribing the decks at such a late phase of the build was really not a very smart idea as I destroyed a lot of existing detail, including the breakwaters (need to do one more). Adding all the lines where to scribe with all that nonsense (err, detail) in the way was really a time vampire! Suddenly the deck of a small model starts to look like a vast area.

Attachment:
deckupdate_01.jpg
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The far end of the hull shows all the planks lines dutifully carved in as well as the margin planks around the bollards, the rudder plate and deck edge. You'll notice a few circular inserts between the vents; this is one of the area's where the glue between the deck and styrene separated and needed to be repaired. I also decided that the individual stanchions with railing will work so all the stanchion positions are drilled in, as well as the positions of all the awnings. I had some etched parts but they didn't work and need to be redone. The awnings were not present on deck, so they'll be the deck fittings. Drilling in should help positioning. I used the spring action pin vise bought at Ushi's webshop and their drill set. The individual drills are very good (only 3 of them now permanently reside in the model) and even though the spring action drill could be a lot better I'd recommend getting one.

Attachment:
deckupdate_02.jpg
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The margin planks around the barbette are easy to add without the turret in place (surprise!). The locations for the 4 steam winches are in place. Here you can see I also add to remove large positions of the deck. The part is really old and I should throw the entire hull away but I'm not going to. So, some inconsistencies will probably remain visible. There are a few circular details scatted around the deck, as well as a few positions for the davits than will be painted hull gray. I spent a lot of time looking at pics to see if margin planks should be added to all perpendicular lines but these were not always present or they were but I can't tell. If you look a bit to the right of the rear bollard you'll notice another disc in the waterway; this is a repair after a drill broke (0.25mm, don't move to much!).

Attachment:
deckupdate_03.jpg
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The center deck was doing not so well. I removed all WEM parts when I got the kit and apparently puttied the deck, adding deck plating later. This is the cause for delamination (of course). All the brass rods are drilling into the styrene to fix the superstructure parts to so there will be no stress on the deck plates. Areas without any function were carved out. This shot also shows I continued with the margin planks for the superstructure, drawing the outlines, added an offset, puttying the existing lines, scribing in the details. Most of the disaster areas will be invisible after painting, but the deck isn't entirely flat. A lot of ammo lockers need to be added to this location to hide gaps between the superstructure and the deck... or I'll add random Denton floats that were stored there. There are many support pillars in this area. Today I replaced all of them by tubes by Albion Alloys. The center part of these pillars need to be painted white so adding three segments of tube is probably an easy way to get this demarcation quickly. There are four rectangular support pillars in the outer edges of the deck that were all damaged while scratching, as well as one of the folded ladder davits..

Attachment:
deckupdate_04.jpg
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The margin planks at the deck edge look ok. I did some practicing on scrap styrene but decided to continue on the model Some are a bit wobbly but soit, should be fine I hope. The locations for more folded ladder davits are also in place.

Attachment:
deckupdate_05.jpg
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In the end adding margin planks went quite well, so even the inside of the quarterdeck bulkhead is detailed (one skylight etch part to be added). The two etched parts on the deck are foot plates; the ladders will not be added as these were stored when at sea. In the right corner of the quarterdeck you'll notice one of the eight scupper scattered around the waterway.

Attachment:
deckupdate_06.jpg
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Only one bollard missing... could be worse (Oh, I also lost the aft capstan and a winch drum :big_grin:). I'm going to try adding a layer of primer of the quarterdeck and the main deck below the boat deck and paint those (hopefully this week / tomorrow). The forward deck and boat deck need a bit more work (sigh). Then I need to repair and the damage I did to the side of the hull (sigh). This is a depressing part but at least parts are now getting finished.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:26 pm 
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This is astonishing EJ... truly.

There is nothing much I can add at the moment... when I catch my breath I will have a few questions, no doubt. But in the meantime, wow... just wow...






Actually, there is one question for the moment... what are you going to use for stanchions?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:40 am 
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Thanks bill!

I did a small railing test a few months ago with individual stanchions (etched); I think I'll continue with that, add thin lines...

Primer added... locally dusty but otherwise fine (dust comes off easily).


Last edited by EJFoeth on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:32 am 
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Looking very nice EJ...great work sir...

Pete


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:16 am 
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Thanks!

Attachment:
deckupdate_07.jpg
deckupdate_07.jpg [ 151.01 KiB | Viewed 351 times ]


Priming went well though the layer is a bit dusty (center); easy to remove though but something I need to avoid. Now I can finally see where the puttying/scribing needs more work. The overall puttying all of the fine lines went well enough :smallsmile:

Attachment:
deckupdate_08.jpg
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The deck edge result isn't too bad. Only a few corrections. The top left deck insert is now very clearly visible. Apparently not all Evergreen plates are created equal! I'll have to wait and see what it looks like after washing.

Attachment:
deckupdate_09.jpg
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The quarteckdeck margin plate was the toughest to do, working along a raised edge. It's not as razor-sharp as I'd want but I think good enough; perhaps I'll give it another pass with the chisels. Here too the transision from one plate to the next is visible bottom left and will probably remain visible. How well, better luck with the next ship not that I know what to look at for. There's a bit of dust here and there that needs to be removed too.

At least one giant optical mess is now nice and gray :woo_hoo: Continuing with corrections and perhaps more primer today....

Edit:

Attachment:
deckupdate_10.jpg
deckupdate_10.jpg [ 186.9 KiB | Viewed 338 times ]


Not so bad. The match is not so much for scale but as a reminder that zooming shows so much... awfulness :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 am 
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You have fortitude.... :thumbs_up_1:

and will need some more still... :cool_2: :wave_1:

Respect !
JB

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:28 am 
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Thanks and also thanks for giving me the occasional prod to move on :wave_1: Tomorrow I'll add a coat of Humbrol H72 and continue with detailing the fwd deck. I want to place the entire fwd superstructure deck with the inside painted on the model but not the fwd part, in order to be able to glue it properly (and putty the inevitable gaps) ... then continue painting the fwd deck and fwd superstructure... but my vacation is nearly over :heh:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Well worth the effort. Looks great!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:31 pm 
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